Noise should just be installing Imps though. It’s far stronger.
Thing is, Whiz can install Imps just as well, and save the counters for stuff that’s otherwise untrashable.
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No arguments that Noise should install Imps, dragar.
I still stand by the contention however, that any almost any deck you want to make that takes advantage of whiz’s trashing credit is probably better done in Noise in the current meta.
Between scrubber, and virus recursion (imp) as well as Noise’s mill; and in light of the new programs such as progenitor and hivemind… and the limitations of Anarch econ, asset trashing is probably done just as well in Noise as Whizz.
Kim provides an equivalent edge case. Kim can provide a free trash of an operation. Is that relevent compared to Noises ability to trash via Imp. No. Whizz better than Kim, but until there are some econ cards that help whizz better than other anarchs… I don’t see it.
Ever since I started playing this game people have maligned the value of whizzards ability on the forums. Yet time and time again when I sit across from people they voice their dismay.
Maybe someone who plays a bunch can track the average amount of money saved with whizzard. If its on par with kate then perhaps it wasnt whizzard thats been weak…its been anarch.
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It saves a lot. It makes a difference. I did not keep track, but it is a big difference. Sometimes it’s not only about the exact amount if he saves 3 credits or 12 credits per game, for me it’s also about the tempo swing - You are at 5 creds, you can trash that jackson off R&D, then if you draw you can play that Sure Gamble instantly.
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thought I’d drop a plug here, even though it’s an older thread…
I’m still having a lot of fun with this anarch take on the CT-oracle-events deck. Whizzard is just an econ workhorse; so easy to get a ton out of him. Even in asset-light decks (are those still out there?) I easily net 9-12 credits a game, and often way, way more.
I think there are a lot of weird gems buried in the Anarch card lists beyond viruses, and this type of deck does a great job exploiting them. That said, it’s going to get a lot better once O&C hits…
For my mileage, taking advantage of corps playing more asset econ than ever is what makes whizzard appealing.
Criminals can bank job, but that requires another run (at best doppelganger), and they don’t get full value. At least whiz can desperado run it and make a buck (Adonis).
Also, given you guess right, you can hit it with a queens gambit, and trash it and come out ahead 6 credits for 3 clicks…not bad at all.
Sure imp can help others do that, but imp counters are as good as gold when I play it. I’d MUCH rather sit on the imp tokens for biotics and scorches. Whizz is great because he takes already good cards, and extends the value on them, just like Noise and Kate. I’m a huge fan, I’d rank Whizz as the second best (by far) now, and probably 4th after O&C, by a small margin with #3.
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Back when most people only played Jackson as a trashable, people were spouting this (and it wasn’t true then). Now that everyone and their grandma (including Weyland) is playing trashables, I can’t possibly imagine this to be true.
This, so much this.
My average over many, many games floats somewhere between 9 and 11 credits. One particularly crazy Regionals (where I faced 5 NBN decks over 5 rounds) had me at something like…94? credits saved from his ability. Also, as @hauptmann_jawohl says, the tempo hits not taken are invaluable by themselves already, not to mention the disruption to corp play patterns.
But, you know, I’m sure Noise with Scrubber is better. < /sarcasm >
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Yeah, the sarcasm is ever so called for.
Tell me. What is the winning percentage for Whizzard on Octgn vs Noise?
(42% vs 47% for noise).
How many tourney wins with Whizzard? (All that remains) Oh yeah. 0.
How many for noise? Oh yeah. 3…
So, no matter how valuable you think Whizzards trashing ability is (and it is), in the current meta it is deprecated compared to Noise.
@Chris_Pedersen, as I’m sure you’ll admit, that’s more an argument for how off the rails string Noise’s ability is compared to Whizzard.
Whizzard is still strong, but he needs a more conventional deck to get accesses and set up a Medium win condition. AoA is fine and all, but it’s seems feast or famine to me, and Lotus Field happens too.
I’m hoping key cards in the next expansion, Vigil, Day Job, and Steelskin specifically, and the release of Clot, will allow Wizzard to not have to splash econ or card draw and simply be able to splash 2 SMCs, 1 Atman, and 3 Clones. That with fixed breakers, parasuckers, medium, and Stimhack should be enough to add the consistency to put him on par with current Noise virus spam decks.
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Well what changed noise was the addition of a card that fit into an established deck. Pawnshop with noise wasnt new, it was just pushed much further by card that does triple duty in the deck.
Whizzard’s ability just cant be singled out and improved by a card that doesnt help all anarch. He’s captive to the overarching anarch problem which is deckspace.
It is a rather humorous plight that anarch has faced. So much of their cards dictate what else is In their deck, giving the anarch faction the least freedom.
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Yes, I will have to test my splash idea, but isn’t saying deck space is Anarch’s problem synonymous with saying tutors and card draw are their problem?
I’m talking straightforward Whizzard or E.Kim decks that can get a full rig up on the fly with clone/SMC, have full parasuckering capabilities, and threaten a Medium-based endgame. No Dataleak/josh.b shenanigans, not even the new virus support cards.
I’ve seen and tried Whizzard based aggro builds with desperado, sec testing, etc, and they always seem too slow to set up. Can’t have that and special order, so they never come close to Gabe levels of aggression.
But with O&C Vigil will allow strong passive card draw (along with Inject or Earthrise), Day Job coupled with lib accounts will be the equivalent of having a clunky Magnum opus installed at all times, and once Clot is out, it will allow you to pin fast advance down long enough to set up.
The more you set up with Whizzard, the more his credits are worth each game, and as commented on above, they can be worth a stupendous amount. I think Anarch’s problem was lack of tutors. Just add SMC and Clone Chip, and either splash Atman or play Knight for Lotus Field.
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The thorn in anarchs side is Lotus in Blue Sun. The influence free options are the neutral AIs, FoN, Darwin (and surge), and that’s your lot.
I think you can afford knight, it’s still often a good card, but that’s not a long term answer. Maybe when Spooned comes along that’ll be ok. Other than that it’s Atman at 4 or a touched Yog or a different, less bad worse than yog breaker like zu.13. I’d like LF to be str 5 so D4v1d works. Though that would be a royal pain for Atman.
Maybe I’m over thinking this, BS influence is pretty tight, they often don’t have too many Fields. (1 maybe 2). Maybe you just save the knight for when you have to get in the remote and ignore the server otherwise.
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Problem is, even if you do that, you have to always be ready to run the remote at the end of each of your turns, since your “threatening the remote” play takes like 4 clicks:
- Install Knight
- Move Knight
- Run
- Retreat Knight to unrezzed
That’s a tall order vs. a deck that you want to also be doing other things against. I’d much rather cough up the 3 inf, drop the Atman at 4 and just be ready for any arbitrary number of Lotus Fields, Wendigos, Data Ravens and what have you.
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Nobody is saying that Whizzard is better than Noise. The style of games they play are very different.
You can’t just pick a noise deck, put 2 scrubbers and call it an improved wizzard deck, every click you run to thrash an asset is a click that you won’t install a virus. Noise usually doesn’t care much for assets. On the other hand, Whizzard wants to be running and thrashing cards. Do you really want to install assets naked vs Whizzard? It might cost him a click, but soon it will be a click and a virus counter on harbringer, meaning that you will also lose a card. The power of Whizzard is changing the way corp plays their asset econ. Its less shiny, but it has its value. The current cardpool is not very good for any non-Noise anarch, but O&C helps that and with it it will certainly help Whizzard.
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I think Harbinger Belies this statement; while all anarchs want to trash installed cards at one point or another (parasite much?) whizzard’s asset hate-engine means he can positively plow through asset-heavy decks for massive access potential.
I mean, technically what you say is true, but that’s true of a lot of IDs. There are anarch decks to come that don’t want to run enough viruses to justify noise; in that case, whizzard is the current frontrunner for “most useful ID to plug into my non-virus-relaint anarch deck”
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I’m a bit wary of Harbinger though, and I’ll tell you why: asset-heavy decks in various shapes and forms tend to be my easy matchups as Whiz. If they aren’t, this is the case because of problems a Harbinger include doesn’t solve. When I’m thinking about what sort of scenarios I would be using it for, the two cards that come to mind as doing (approximately) the same thing are Demo Run and Imp. One is more impactful in the scenario where I imagine Harbinger would shine (i.e. "have to dig RnD for points, top X cards are known to not be agendas), the other is more universal. I’m already at the point where Demo Run usually gets cut despite knowing how incredibly potent it is, and I’m running only two Imps most of the time, in order to fit in all the necessary goodies.
What sorts of archetypes do you guys imagine Harbinger to work best in? Some sort of denial scenario, as a supplement to DLR in an attempt to deck the corp? Or perhaps with Incubator, to have a completely non-interactive backup plan as a counter to things like ITD lockout, RP durdling or CI - drop Harbinger, Incubate it, do some drugs and go to town four times?
I can sorta see the possibilities, but it feels like it needs a lot of support to be relevant.
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Including a Harbinger, Amped up, and an Incubator isn’t a bad 3-card solution for Archives pressure in Whizzard. Individually, each card is usually a “quality draw,” without support, and together they’re good both mid game and as a desperate last turn play. This same trio could be good in E.Kim decks as well.
Splashing Clone Chips and SMC’s enable crap like this to come together even more. Broken record, but I think they’re the lynchpin to a lot of the upcoming Anarch strats.
Here’s a list with that idea included. I’m interested in feedback on Inject vs. Earthrise, the econ package (cyberfeeders good?), and the Steelskin vs. Plascrete issue.
Whizzard SMC Harbinger
Whizzard: Master Gamer (What Lies Ahead)
Event (18)
1x Amped Up (Order and Chaos)
2x Day Job (Order and Chaos)
2x Dirty Laundry (Creation and Control)
1x Déjà Vu (Core Set)
3x Inject (Up and Over)
1x Showing Off (Order and Chaos)
2x Steelskin (Order and Chaos)
2x Stimhack (Core Set)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
1x Wanton Destruction (Order and Chaos)
Hardware (9)
3x Clone Chip (Creation and Control) ••••• •
3x Cyberfeeder (Core Set)
1x MemStrips (Order and Chaos)
2x Vigil (Order and Chaos)
Resource (3)
3x Liberated Account (Trace Amount)
Icebreaker (4)
1x Atman (Creation and Control) •••
1x Corroder (Core Set)
1x Mimic (Core Set)
1x Yog.0 (Core Set)
Program (11)
1x D4v1d (The Spaces Between)
2x Datasucker (Core Set)
1x Harbinger (Order and Chaos)
1x Incubator (The Source)
1x Medium (Core Set)
3x Parasite (Core Set)
2x Self-modifying Code (Creation and Control) ••••• •
15 influence spent (max 15)
45 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Order and Chaos
Deck built on http://netrunnerdb.com.
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I definitely agree; there are a lot of decks where harbinger is (exactly as you say) like demo run; undeniably a powerful card that there really isn’t room for in the deck. I was really more just speaking to the comment that cards couldn’t be made that help whizz more than other anarchs; I think harbinger is a clear counter-example to that.
One thing I’m imagining for it is in a heavy ice-destruction deck, a la silverware/parasite recursion, where even beyond asset trashing you’ll still get an extra access every time you break down their defenses. It’s also hard to say, I think, just how good cards like incubator and breeding ground will be at powering up individual viruses; at the very least it may be a way to “force” a virus purge turn.
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Harbinger is the data leak reversal of non-tag me eater decks.
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