Levy-less MaxX, and luck/skill/variance discussion

anon34370798 · April 24, 2015, 6:48am

anon34370798 · April 24, 2015, 7:14am

I tried a lot of these (still playing a 77 no levy deck since O&C day 1). Rates are 21 wins out of 33 games, against decks & players of various level, so it’s a little less than 2/3 (it was very valid deck in O&C, now I face lots of problems with Sansan#1). I think these rates are very honest vs my usual results. That’s a great learn-to-aggro-or-die deck.
I’d say losses are 40% because I’m a player making stupid moves, 40% because of lost consistency, 20% because “hey run this, BLAM gg” (like Gov. Takeover / Punitive Counterstrike, what you gonna do, say hi ?).

Kati Jones issues
The biggest problem I see is no Kati Jones because, as you noticed, death is behond your turn 18.
With Kati Jones, you can survive. Sort of.

Inject vs IHW
IHW all the way.

Reason is Inject is not an agressive card, it’s a 2-3-4 clic card, or an Easy Mark creating problems. I’ve had worse is a rush card and have a lot of value against each corp (but plays different vs each). In fact, Inject slows you.

IHW is drawing set multiple of 3. Inject draws set 4 so it messes with your drawing clics count to remind.
(sidenote : no, you DON’T want to count remaining cards in stack in the middle of the game + irl you’re not playing with octgn + you don’t want to show where the panic is + you don’t want the corp player to actually have a brb moment to think. You’re playing with all of this too. You’re playing aggro, not “wait I’ll inject stuff and play this then run”.
No : ideally some turns would be Clic 1 run, 2 run, 3 run, 4 run or something more or less similar to this, playing one card instead of running in those clics, and that’s not necesserally clic 4.).

With no drawing considerations, 59 - 5 (opening hand) is a multiple of 3 (guess which one, 18, hey, funny that’s your death turn ;)), 62 too (death turn is 19).
60 is 18.333, your death turn is 1 card staying in the stack @ turn 18 if you played no injects.

Each time you’ ll put +3 cards for deck size, you’ll get a turn.
I choosed to set the death turn to 24 (24x3 = 72, + 5 = 77) and sometimes draw if I see the corp is too quick for the deck (vs FA for exemple).
Same thing, each time you draw 3 cards you’ll go toward death -1 turn.

So, at 59 cards, first Inject you play will make your death turn @ 17, second @16, third @15 (minus 1.33 each, so minus 2 for the first. At 60 though, you’re -1/-2/-1, this is the second Inject that makes you -2.

61 is -1/-1/-2 if you want better control. Since your third Inject migth never see the ligth, you’d better go for …46/49/52/55/58/61/64/67/70… for the number of cards for any no drawing MaxX with Inject.

IHW remove 1 turn each (gives more control) => Inject is sort of anti-tempo to me.

I think you should remove those Injects for I’ve had worse and go 59 or 62 too. Or keep those Injects and go for 61. But IHW acheive a lot more (incl. being a tin hat to Scorched Earth, a Jinteki face checking card, a Diesel vs some FA decks, etc). Inject is, well, just some draw card.

So my pref is IHW. If your pref is Inject, go 61. This little +1 may sound stupid but it actually gives you 1 or 2 more clic at death turns.

Various things left to be said
I also would not rely on QG and LF are lost inf in my book (in that particular no larla-tower situation I mean) but that’s your choice. QG are dangerous vs Blue Sun & Tenin.

As people said, Imp.
I’d add Djinn (+1 AI of your choice x3) if you go in seventies. If I draw Djinn & Kati soon, the corp dies.

I agree with people here though, “no future” tower MaxX “archetypes” (cough not yet one cough) should have a thread on their own, more testers and less talkers : unless people try those, you’ll face a bunch of Jon Snows.

Therad · April 24, 2015, 10:13am

Shouldn’t the logical deck size for MaxX be 3*45 = 135?

anon34370798 · April 24, 2015, 10:14am

@Therad

But if that was serious, how many games you played lasted 45 turns ?

Therad · April 24, 2015, 11:18am

Probably none, even if some games have felt like it.
and no, I was not serious. Just logical.

edmund_blake_nelson · April 26, 2015, 4:18am

forgetting imp is my specialty I also forgot it in val. here’s an attempt at a small increase of cards to 62, after this we hit the hard limit of not playing a good econ package. sure when you actually draw the card levy AR lab acess it is merely bad, but Same old thing>levy is a fucking disaster. It took me a while to make this post because testing matchups takes a long time when playtest partners don’t have infinite free time. Wanton is MUCH better than legwork VS RP, since Wanton on a TFP gives 3 distinct chances to run on Archives after you run on their HQ. Imp is pretty scary as well vs RP, but not as scary as wanton+Utopia shard.
The theoretical death turn of this deck (when it stops drawing) is 17 but the actual death turn (when it stops being good) is turn 20, lots of the cards in the deck are very click intensive, which means I have sustainability past the point where I stop drawing cards. I want to test a version later with Knifed AND spooned, just for maxX ice destruction (borrowing from recent tournament result of having low econ MAXX with ICE destruction doing well)

Anyway here’s the next version (literally just added 2 imp and cut nothing, it works fine for now)

###[Red Deck Wins][1] (62 cards)

[MaxX: Maximum Punk Rock][2]

Event (27)

3 [Day Job][3]
3 [Dirty Laundry][4]
3 [Inject][5]
2 [Lucky Find][6] ••••
3 [Queen’s Gambit][7]
2 [Retrieval Run][8]
2 [Spooned][9]
3 [Stimhack][10]
3 [Sure Gamble][11]
3 [Wanton Destruction][12]

Hardware (6)

3 [Clone Chip][13] ••••• •
3 [Grimoire][14]

Resource (7)

3 [Daily Casts][15]
3 [Liberated Account][16]
1 [Utopia Shard][17] •

Icebreaker (9)

3 [Corroder][18]
3 [Mimic][19]
1 [Yog.0][20]
2 [ZU.13 Key Master][21] ••••

Program (13)

2 [D4v1d][22]
3 [Datasucker][23]
2 [Imp][24]
3 [Medium][25]
3 [Parasite][26]

RP is weird, Stimhack/Parasite/Spooned are very strong vs RP, but forked isn’t (only really kills eli) The injects/Liberated account provide so much econ that Stealing NAPD isn’t much of a chore, Stimhack makes seeing R&D TFP less problematic because you can stimhack back into the TFP, I’ve been doing well vs RP but testing the matchup isn’t always easy, and besides, this is probably going to be one of my last posts on a netrunner forum in general, I’ve been pretty burnt out of the game recently, I could make a post as to why but that’s for another day, but generally I will say

People SUCK at netrunner hardcore, and it is really really easy to learn how to be good if you actually think about your lines.
Netrunner once you stop sucking is 90% random accesses deciding who wins and loses, with very little room for interesting play.
Netrunner’s resource system is really basic (which is fine) but often leaves you with a series of poor choices each turn. The game really punishes you for trying to squeeze out a win, and
no matter how hard I try to say it isn’t “the deck” is still far and away the best deck in the format in every format. Account siphon is so degenerate when combined with all the criminal econ cards, Siphon’s real huge strength is how much of a forcing move it is, so many people say 'I’ll just go broke" bitch when you go broke you just handed me a ticket that said “I’m helpless exploit me however you please” Also people vastly overrate their ability to go broke vs account siphon. Combine that with OP breakers and OP econ you just can’t win until double time where corp got OP tools to fight OP tools.
Netrunner players as a whole vastly overrate “skill” and vastly overrate their edges over other players, I want to make a bank of captain with similar rules to bank of timex (you can buy shares of yourself winning a given event) Once you learn how to exploit various things the game really just degenerats into matchups and coinflips
netrunner has terrible wasted design space, The top ID’s (Maxx andy Kate, ETF RP NEH and Blue sun) are all simply the most powerful economic identity the faction has to offer, BS/RP use their OP combo’s with the ID while ETF/NEH are a combo with netrunner.

bblum · April 26, 2015, 4:21am

Agh I split the topic but then moved some additional posts over here too that had been made earlier and it looks like there was some duplication(?). Sorry if stuff is out of order. I trust yall are big girls and boys and can figure it out.

mediohxcore · April 26, 2015, 5:23am

Lets all give @bblum a big round of applause for his first attempt at forum moderation!

bblum · April 26, 2015, 5:25am

ive done it correcty before ._.

maznaz · April 26, 2015, 1:04pm

A post so condescending and inflammatory we need to read it twice!

anon34370798 · April 26, 2015, 9:13pm

You should really try to read what I wrote about your deck.

For exemple, could you care to explain why LF if you play no SoT, no Levy. It’s not the best inf you could spend in $$ there. You could have put Kati and use that inf elsewhere, wherever you want.

Inf in my 77 card MaxX is 3 FF, 2 Clone Chip, 3 Scavenge, 1 Utopia, 1 Hades.

mediohxcore · April 26, 2015, 9:54pm

Lucky find is just as bad to recur as anything else youd play in the slot, and imo its the best card. Other things are fine, I like more money. High level play is often an econ war followed by someone having to get aggressive because theyre losing the econ war. Lucky is the best econ card.

anon34370798 · April 27, 2015, 6:43am

I agree when you play Levy, when you don’t I think it’s another story.

2 LF in this means 50% + Injects + Starting hand. This is quite difficult to find.
For exemple, you and him put Zu, it’s ok because there’s tutors to profit of your inf.
After turn 18, this deck is always dead. There should just have something to survive instead on relying on credit clic at least somewhere in this deck. Katie is maybe not a perfect source of income, but she have the effect to be perfect for remote locking.

I mean I’m sure Katie gives more than 12 cred a game. So in terms of eco wars, she’s fine. Her main problem is tempo and nothing else (12c: instal+5 clic instead of 4 with luck to find both). This is more stable, I think. It’s locking remotes quicker than LFs in those decks because usually the pilot don’t draw much. It’s +1 card in grip and if this is a double, it will mean run in 3 or 4.

I’d cut 1 QG, those 2 LF for Katies, and would try to do something better with that inf. For exemple a third Zu instead of Yog, maybe better Killers, or Bank Jobs instead of QG, etc, etc.

BJester · April 27, 2015, 7:40am

Anyone got a translation?

anon34370798 · April 27, 2015, 8:45am

@BJester If you’ve ever played a tower-no levy Maxx, you can translate by your own.

Those decks don’t draw. Never.
There’s no levy / no sot / no whatever to find a trashed LF from heap in @edmund_blake_nelson’s list
=> So, you’re relying upon passive drawing odds of those LF.

In that case, base % of drawing 1x or 2xLF from a slot of two is 50% + % from inject drawing those LF + % from finding LF in starting hand.

You’re @ 70% top I’d say.
So, you spent 4 inf to have 70% of +6c or +12c only once.

In a 45-Levy list, you spent 4 inf to find +6c, +12c twice, at more % because you draw.

% to get 2xLF is much lower (around 20% I’d say). 4 inf for +12c @20% and +6c @50% (20+50=70%).
4 inf for strictly nothing in 30% of cases.

4 inf for 30% of wtf is too expensive in my opinion.

Exact % is easy to find, if you want it, I can provide. Maybe it’s 20% of wtf. Maybe 40% of wtf. Whatever, it’s still wtf.

If you also have trouble finding this, I can explain how to, it’s a really simple math pb. Stats of those decks are really easier that Levy one.

===>
In this deck, you will see in grip 5 starting hand card + 19 cards (33% of remaining card).

Then go to http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx

If you don’t retain inject @ mulligan,
Odds to find :

0 inject = 28%
1 inject = 45%
2 injects = 22%
3 injects = 3%

So you saw
5 (starting hand) + 0.2819 + 0.45(19+4) + 0.22*(19+4+4) + 0.03*(19+4+4+4) cards = 27.54 if i’m rigth.

Then go back to http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx

0 LF = 30% => no recursion mean 30% of games
1 LF = 50%
2 LF = 20%

Conclusion : 4 inf 30% of wtf games. I would not buy this.

clercqie · April 27, 2015, 11:03am

Stop. Please.

Thesper · April 27, 2015, 12:06pm

I think your argument is that if you spend your influence on powerful programs, they can be recurred so you should play them most games.

If you spend your influence on powerful cards that can’t be recurred, you won’t draw them every game due to milling, and so your deck will have higher variance in power level from game to game. So switch to non-influence econ, and better programs.

Which makes some sense, but, the Anarch programs are very good already. And I don’t get why you suggested adding Bank Job?

anon34370798 · April 27, 2015, 12:11pm

@Thesper This is exactly it. Kati is cited because this particular deck “meet an end” unlike any other runner deck.
Stack is over, 5 cards in hand, will you play your last events or clic credit vs Jinteki / Weyland / NBN T&B ? You’d be happy to have something to clic credit. With this deck, that situation WILL happen half of your games (esp. vs Jinteki).

“Programs are good” : try the deck because there’s a huge anti-synergy problem with 2 parts breakers like Mimic in those kind of MaxX.

Bank Job is an idea like that, if the credit per clic all matters and not % of drawing.
This works very well in my meta but if I understood well, it’s not the case at all here.

mediohxcore · April 27, 2015, 1:08pm

This is what happens when you make a thread called levyless maxx…

PeekaySK · April 27, 2015, 1:17pm

Nah, it was fine until the ill-advised summon.