I agree with all you said. I did say that I wish it was designed to be more targeted. The MWL is a good spot for it.
It’s too bad that Caprice being a NPE for a lot of players (before the new level NPE caused by prison decks last cycle), gave the designers the idea that they need such a strong counter. Hopefully, they also had the forethought to include new interesting ice and upgrades in the next cycles/expansions to make Glacier a viable archetype again.
I do remember that when Clot was released, there was a similar outcry about it being a hard counter that affects not only the big bad wolf (NEH AstroBiotics), but crushes the Tennin FA and CI FA. And now, the author of this excellent article, uses it as an example of a well designed hate card. I do hope with the release of new cards that we come to the same conclusion for Rumor Mill.
I’ve never had a huge problem with caprice because many to most psi games aren’t random; she’s unique, so you can turn your attention to another server if you don’t want to risk spending money on contesting the remote and having nothing to show for it; and there are so many answers to her.
As someone who plays criminal a lot, Batty is the one that I find more frustrating because it creates situations where non-Geist blue decks are crippled for the rest of the game if they lose one psi game. Friends in High Places allows the corp to basically spam Batties in every server that matters, which makes the limited answers available inadequate.
On the other hand, I hate the design on rumor mill and love the glacier archetype in general. It’s a little bit of a dilemma.
As long as there is no way to interact with runner currents on the runner’s turn, the comparison is off. Clot had a counter printed before, it’s a completely different situation.
I do agree that there’s hardly any way to interact with runner currents, but there is one. I mentioned this as a problem before and suggested a design that could help:
Maybe the comparison is not one-to-one, but the discussion of how Clot was too much of a hard counter around these parts was almost to the same level. They acknowledged CVS, but didn’t think it was good enough to win reliably. But, people do get better and adjust.
I don’t think it will be as easy; that’s why I’m advocating for more creative options for Glacier.
This is magical Christmasland that makes absolutely no sense and functions unlike anything we’ve got and would fundamentally break the game. There are already cards that hinder glacier strategies, but not make them unplayable. Rumor Mill makes it near-unplayable.
I’m all for constructive criticism, but I can’t make sense of what you’re trying to say. I guess I don’t understand why a grid that allows you to play a current during the runner’s would break the game? Seems like a lot of situations would have already been vetted with Sol’s ability, only difference is that it’s at the Corp’s control. What’s your reasoning behind your first sentence? Did you mean to quote something else?
I’d give you that it’s magical Christmasland and unlike anything we’ve got, since I gave it as an example of a new card that can deal with Rumor Mill. Although, it’s my understanding that “magical Christmasland” is used when someone looks at the best case scenario to make a card or combo good, but doesn’t acknowledge the average case or the effort to get to that scenario, which I don’t think is the case here.
Well, the idea that a grid can “trash” to play a current is counter to the design of grids and how events/operations work. And I guess the term “magical christmasland” is used incorrectly, but I just meant this fantasy aspect of designing even more busted cards to counter already busted, uncounterable cards. It feels appropriate. Do you think that a mid-run ability to blank a runner is good for the game? How is that more fair than Interdiction or Polyop? Instant effects are insanely powerful as they are, and giving the corp a way to insta-play Targeted Marketing, Static, Manhunt, Door to Door, etc in a way that breaks how operations work seems busted and unfair. I think that if we’re moving toward insta-speed (and modular) design that breaks the game’s rules simply to counter a single card, we’ve gone too far. It actually is an argument, as I see it, for Rumor Mill being banned.
Anyway, I’m not trying to sound confrontational. The issue I have with Rumor Mill is that you can only interact with currents in one of two ways: play another current (doesn’t matter if your plan is defensive upgrades, at the current moment), and score agendas (which is difficult, if not impossible, if your plan is defensive upgrades). Because of the nature of Mill, the potential solutions are for FFG to print non-unique defensive upgrades, which they have so far been pretty cagey about doing, or banning/MWLing Mill. If Caprice/Batty were serious problems to the game, why haven’t they added them to the MWL at all?
What about an upgrade that trashes itself to trash any currents in play? That is purely defensive, not offensive so it avoids the issues you mention. I still don’t like it as a silver bullet design, but it’s proabably better than something playing a current from Archives.
Personally, I think they should just ban Rumor mill and be done with it.
Yes, I think such an effect would be fun and interactive. I would agree that it would raise some rules questions, but that’s kind of been’s FFG’s MO anyway.
I think the hypothetical grid is fair, and so is Interdiction and Pol Op. I don’t think there’s a set design for grids, see: Manta Grid (that’s a pretty weird effect). But, if you don’t like that a grid can be trashed on it’s own, fair enough, it can just be a non-unique upgrade like Self-Destruct, or, umm CVS.
Let’s go one by one:
Target Marketing - not much difference from playing it instead of the hypothetical grid. Since, there’s no “in response”, you hardly get an advantage to play it at a paid ability. Maybe a bonus when you get to see the card the runner just drew.
Static - Worst scenario, you blast Kit on the first encounter. Not much different than a Batty fire. Waste Whizzard’s click by taking away his recurring credits just before access?
(EDIT: Can make it non-usable during a run like AAL, so Kit and Nasir can be safe, if it seems too powerful in play-testing.)
Manhunt - Small bonus for firing right before the first run is successful. But, most runners know to not run last click, so they can just clear the tag.
Door to Door - Beginning of the runner’s turn trigger, so no difference from playing it instead of the hypothetical grid.
Any interaction that I’ve overlooked? A lot of these are interactive scenarios, both players care about what the other is doing, which I think is a good thing and why Clot vs. CVS was a good example of a good hate card interaction. And raises the hypothetical grid to more all around useful card, not just a hate card for one current.
I think the thing about grids is that they only do things during runs on that particular server. I’m more of a fan of the non-unique thing, along with the AAL wording to make it bit less stupid in particular scenarios that may become a thing as new currents come out.
That said, they could just print non-unique defensive upgrades. The thing is, though, they can’t make them too good right? Having 3 rezzed at once on different servers is a little silly. I’d just settle for a more affordable Old Hollywood Grid please.
Agreed. There is precedent for the non-unique defensive upgrades though, like Red Herrings and Old Hollywood Grid. It depends what you want the defensive upgrade’s effect to be, I suppose.
Everyone is forgetting about the reason why glacier was already doing very poorly even before rumor mill was released: ice destruction. If you blow up all the ice on a server, caprice isn’t going to keep you out for long.
Obviously Friends may change things, and make glacier really good without Rumor Mill. Or Parasifr may change things the other way, making dumblefork even more of a glacier killer than it was a year ago. But I think it’s worth banning rumor mill to find out, because not a lot of people seem to like the current meta where runners are heavily favored and playing glacier brings the risk of losing because of a single card.
I’ll add Nasir to my edit.