fits thematically as well imho; doesn’t seem like punitive was intended to be a trap sprung when you stumble onto a decoy or trick - it’s a motivated retribution for when you land access data that truly hurts the corp.
The fact remains however that the agendas were still stolen. It doesn’t seem like things that happen after the fact should affect that status (eg, forfeiting the agenda).
Punitive:
Forfeiting the agenda that was stolen doesn’t change the fact the agenda was stolen. Likewise, stealing GFI is stealing 3 points, even if it’s only worth 2 while in the runner’s score area (or 1 with The Board). I understand this is not the current rule, I’m just saying the current rule is unintuitive.
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I see what you’re saying, I just disagree that it is unintuitive. Yes, you still stole the agenda you forfeited (so the corp could play Midseason for example because it is known that an agenda was stolen), but when you play Punitive the game can’t reach back into the past and request the number of agenda points. It has to ask when its effect resolves, and at that point how many points are on that agenda? None, because that agenda doesn’t exist anymore. I think it would be unintuitive for a card to reference information that no longer exists without more precise language.
Edit to add: This is the difference between game events and game values. “Stole an agenda” is a game event recorded in the game state log. “Number of agenda points on an agenda” is a value (variable, if you will), that can only have a single value at any given time.
I think the confusion is when we are measuring the game value. I would think, according to the wording on Punitive, that the value would be recorded at the time of steal and referenced by any relevant cards (ie, Punitive). Grammatically, it could be interpreted either way.
What does “However many points are on the agenda if Turntabled” mean? If I steal Food Initiative and turntable it away to the corp in exchange for a 1-pointer, will Punitive deal 3 damage?
So, Punitive ‘sees’ the agenda I stole even if it’s currently in another zone? If so, what zones can it see it in? If I steal 15 Minutes and then the corp uses its ability to shuffle it into R&D, will Punitive deal 0 or 1 damage?
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Yes. When the Punitive is played, the agenda that the Runner stole is worth 3 points, so Punitive would deal 3 damage.
That is a good question! I’m gonna ask Lukas.
Edit: 15 Minutes is still in the game, so the value defaults to the printed number. 1 meat damage.
I wonder how that would be supposed to work in practice if everyone forgot how many points it was worth? Neither player can really go searching through R&D to check.
It might sound like nit-picking, and the times it comes up in practice where there is a dispute about the number of points 15 Minutes is worth and there is no third party on hand to carefully check through R&D in secret to find out may in reality be vanishingly small, but it sets a little bit of a uncomfortable precedent for future effects if we are supposed to be able to refer to information only available on cards that neither player can legally view in the current gamestate.
as someone with a fair amount of training as a philosopher, I have many questions about ANR’s metaphysics and how that informs its internal logic 
You could always google it, or look at spare copies of the card.
“But you can’t access that material legally!” Not during a tournament, no. But that’s why tournaments have TOs.
I don’t think it would cause any real issues. However it does introduce the idea that the game isn’t technically playable without one of either:
- a third party;
- a recording of the game to rewind for reference;
- an encyclopaedic knowledge of every card and effect in the game.
That hasn’t been the case before: if players have been unsure of how something works the relevant player (at least) has always been able to check it. The actual sequence of events that would cause the issue to crop up with this ruling are unlikely to cause problems, but it’s an uncomfortable precedent.
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i actually disagree with this. the corp just shuffled R&D when s/he clicked for 15 minutes - there is no reason at all they could not look through RnD and shuffle it again without changing the game state in any practical way.
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Click one: shuffle 15 Minutes into R&D.
Click two: play An Offer you cant Refuse naming R&D during which the Runner runs and sees the top three cards.
Click three: Punitive Counterstrike.
Like I said, the actual scenario regarding 15 Minutes and Punitive Counterstrike might be very unlikely to cause issues, but the idea that the game can rely on the players referencing information on cards that they’re not allowed to look at seems to me to set somewhat of a dangerous precedent for the future.
In these cases could a judge/ independant party not get another copy of the card (or look through RnD themselves while not revealing anything) to determine the agenda value / rules text of a card?
hmm, don’t know why I thought 15 minutes took 2 clicks…
pretty sure the rules on outside materials only apply to tournament games (which implies the presence of a TO to check).
while it’s not exactly the same (since it wouldn’t be shuffled into the deck) the precedent for “players have to remember things about the game state that aren’t currently represented by a card” has been around since the core set in the form of sneakdoor still working if it’s trashed during the sneakdoor run. It’s really, really hard for me to imagine a scenario in which remembering something you did on the same turn that you did it becomes a major impediment to gameplay…
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?
So why is “being in the game” important? If a stolen agenda is Data Dealered or Frame Jobbed away (and thus removed from the game), that doesn’t remove the Punitive Counterstrike exposure does it?
(edit: or Turntabled back to Corp, who rezzes a Corporate Town at end of runner’s turn and removes stolen agenda from game 
)
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Apparently it does.
This all seems pretty strange. With e.g. The Board there seemed to be two reasonable interpretations based on a reading of the cards. One was that the game “remembers” how many points were stolen last turn and you use that; the other was that the game “remembers” only which agendas were stolen and checks the points on them now. Lukas said the second was correct, which is fine.
The 15 Minutes ruling seems to use elements of both. The game “remembers” how many agenda points were stolen last turn, but also which agendas were stolen - and uses those agendas’ current value(s) if possible. If not possible, it uses the value it remembers, unless the agenda has subsequently been removed from the game, in which case it forgets what it remembered. I’m struggling to find a lot of internal consistency here. Am I missing something?
I don’t think the game remembers that 15 Minutes was stolen at 1 point. Punitive asks the game how many points are on agendas that were stolen last turn. The game knows that 15 Minutes was stolen, and it knows that it’s worth 1 point currently (because it is the default value and there are no modifiers that change how many points an agenda is worth while in R&D).
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I see. I guess the point of confusion for me is how the game knows that the 15 Minutes in R&D is the one that was stolen. I’d assumed a card being shuffled into R&D would make the game see it as a new copy. I’m guessing the weirdness is because stolen agendas aren’t “installed”, but it still seems unintuitive that they don’t become new copies once shuffled in.
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I personally disagree with this ruling for exactly that reason. Just being the messenger/interpreter here 
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