If I’m reading that right, it’s what I guessed at in my latest post on the matter? When SIFR is activated, it checks the strength as activated, and reduces it by that much (to 0). Any strength modifiers that occur after that would allow it to go above 0.
It seems so:
After some confusion:
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I’m looking for a reference so I can understand why a rule is as it is.
On Slack yesterday, someone told me that the following was not a valid play.
Corp has Executive Boot Camp and Adonis Campaign unrezzed on board.
1.1 - Corp rezes EBC.
1.2 - (Start of turn) Corp uses EBC conditional ability to rez Adonis for -1 credit cost. Then, since it is still the start of turn, the Adonis conditional fires.
Person on Slack said this not legal because the Adonis was not rezed at the beginning of 1.2. The person wrote that you line up all the conditional abilities that meet the trigger at the moment the triggering conditional occurs and resolve them in any order, but that any new conditional abilities that become active in this process are not resolved.
I’ve been trying to find where that is explained in the rules or FAQ, but have failed in my search.
Sorry, just trying to get my head clear on this. Does this mean that Quicksand will always be at least 1 str with a Sifr in play, barring any other strength raising/lowering cards?
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That’s not exactly the correct way of wording it but they’re correct, if you look at the timing structure of a turn there’s one moment (1.2) where the start of turn event fires. That triggers EBC and allows the install of the Adonis, but by the time the Adonis has installed the event has already fired. The Adonis never “sees” the start of turn.
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As far as I know, this is all precedent set out by lots of rulings on timing windows. Examples from the top of my head:
Personal Evolution won’t deal a Net damage if corp scores an Agenda while Employee Strike in play.
When you install Daily Casts off of The Supplier, you don’t also get to trigger Daily Casts.
This means there’s like a 3 step result to resolving abilities at any triggering condition
-
Timing window occurs
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Trigger all relevant abilities
-
Resolve all abilities triggered from step 2
Anything that comes into play or becomes active during step 3 has already missed step 2, and so it will not trigger.
@FightingWalloon there was a really big discussion a few months ago when this was all ironed out by @jakodrako. The results of those discussions and talks with the designers resulted in this ANCUR article which lays out what I just summarized with more depth and reasoning. @ironcache created a thread specifically to discuss this portion of the rules, which IMO is worth a read.
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Thanks for the links. I did not find them in my own search. I’ll read them over.
So this is different than the Medical Research Grant/Team Sponsorship case because in this case the trigger is on the Medical Research Grant even though it has no target until the Team Sponsorship fires.
Yes, that’s how I understand the ruling. As long as it’s the runner’s turn. @ironcache’s Sandburg example is very similar.
To clarify on the Quicksand SIFR interaction, it will be at strength 0 between when SIFR’s ability resolves and when Quicksand’s ability resolves, but after Quicksand resolves, it will be strength 1.
This is an important consideration because Parasite can still result in a kill before Quicksand can trigger.
I realize – especially given his earlier replies in the thread – that @jakodrako might not have thought this all the way through, but his answer to the particular way that you asked that question has much bigger implications than for SIFR. Specifically, the conclusion suggests that the bonus from Sandburg is not applied as a single unit (e.g. +4 for 20 credits) but rather as discrete bonuses for each set of 5 credits (e.g. x4 instances of (+1 for 5 credits)), each with its own separate timing. Is that previously confirmed/accurate?
Not to prematurely derail this, but if that is accurate, the interaction with SIFR is going to get really messy in a hurry. E.g. Corp on Sandburg + 16 credits when a Caduceus (Str 6) is encountered. SIFR is used (Str 0). Corp dumps 2 credits into the Cad trace (still Str 0), which then succeeds, putting corp back up at 17 credits. Is that a ‘new’ +1, putting the Cad at Str 1?
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I think, rather than separate instances for Sandburg, it’s that both cards modify by a certain amount, and SIFR’s amount is the strength of the ICE when its ability resolves. So, in the example you give, it would still be strength 0 at the end:
Initial State: Caduceus rezzed (STR = 3), modified by Sandburg with 16 credits (+3 mod). Runner w/ SIFR is encountering this ICE.
- Activate SIFR. ICE strength is currently 6 (3 and a +3 mod), so SIFR’s effect is to apply a -6 mod.
- Facesmash into subs. First sub fires, and corp spends 2 credits into trace (now at 14). Sandburg’s mod changes from +3 to +2, resulting in a strength of (3 +2 -6 = -1).
- Runner lets the first trace succeed. Corp now has 17 credits. Sandburg’s mod changes from +2 to +3, resulting in a strength of (3 +3 -6 = 0).
That’s my thoughts anyway.
EDIT: modified to allow negative strength.
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I agree, so responded on Twitter:
Precisely. Research Grant says “when scored you may” do the effect, so it’s able to be triggered even if another Research Grant isn’t in play. Team Sponsorship triggers on a simultaneous trigger, and then you resolve them in the order of your choice (Team Sponsorship first so that Research Grant resolving is useful).
ICE str can be negative.
Hmm, Sifr would’ve been more clear if it had used something similar Eater’s wording e.g. the strength of that ICE cannot be more than 0 for the remainder of the encounter.
Yes, that’s mechanically different from how it appears to work but to me the given explanation of how it works is, well, fiddly and messy as it seems like the ICE strength can vary in meaningful ways mid-run e.g.:
Ninja vs Negotiator + Sandburg - Runner has 1 credit, Corp has 14. Runner uses Sifr and is intending to just break the “Trash 1 program” subroutine allowing the +2 creds, but the the +2 creds triggers first and so bumps it up a notch meaning it’s now STR 1 and so the runner can’t break the second subroutine.
Have I understood that right as far as we know? (Edit: nope, see next post)
It seems like a fair few complications are avoided by no rezzing being allowed after encounter starts and Runner going first so paid abilities probably not getting fired by corp (e.g. there’s no point rezzing Corporate Troubleshooter, but saving the ability for the next phase). However, An Offer You Can’t Refuse flips this on its head and cards like IT Department come into play - now you can’t just look at the board state and the cards played, the sequence in which they were played becomes very significant, which to me is clunky for this particular kind of interaction (again, if I had indeed understood it right)
Ah my mistake actually, the Runner will have already broken the Trash Program subroutine by the time the +2 creds fires, so that’s not an issue in that case.
That’s fair, and I’ve modified the post to reflect that. However, it doesn’t change the point I was getting at.
On a tangent (responding more generally), I’m missing the point of conflict for SIFR/Sandburg. You figure out the strength of the ICE when the ability resolves, and subtract that much strength from the ICE as the effect. SIFR works similar to many other effects in the game; observe some element of board state, affect board state based on it. Sandburg’s effect is free to wobble around after that (as a constant ability). It seems intuitive to me, is there something I’m missing, or a reason this flow doesn’t work?
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While @jakodrako 's response to the question about str going negative wasn’t a hard no, his answer (“An effect leaving the game is not the same as a reverse effect being enacted.”) seemed to suggest it wasn’t a clear “yes,” either.
To be clear, I think the cases where the distinction would ever matter are currently limited to AOYCR runs. Otherwise, SIFR is going to activate and then presumably the runner is going to use their first paid window to break anything they want to break. But forget the fluctuating Sandburg, for a moment - let’s say the corp is on Sandburg + Troubleshooter (this is a world where D4V1D was never printed, obvs) and dumps 10 creds into the troubleshooter during an AOYCR run after a SIFR proc. If the ice is going to negative str, it seems clear that it ends up at 8str. If not - if the Sandburg effect ‘leaves but is not reversed’ - presumably it ends up at 10str?
I think this is more of a situation where before Sifr there was an open and frankly previously irrelevent question. Do triggered abilities that have a time component (ie. end or run) basically set up a conditional effect for that time and thus reevaluated when necessary, are they set when fired and expire at the given time, or are these conditional effects handled in a straight time ordered stack. This is the first card, or at least first card that may be actually played, where that distinction is actually somewhat relevant, as previously you could have believed anyone (or others that I can’t think of right now) of those ‘core’ theories and still be able to make the right effective call.
We know it isn’t the first based on Jako’s answer to my linked tweet (Strength goes to 1, so SIFR can’t be constantly trying to set it to 0). I’m leaning towards the second thing, but I also am unsure exactly what the third entails.
I want to say 8. There’s no way I was going to fit that example in a tweet, but I did send off this:
https://twitter.com/ANR_Questions/status/820630692728107010
The answer to this (if it’s -7, at least) will let us answer your given example (as being 8), if I’m understanding correctly? If it isn’t -7, likely the answer to your example is 10.