Official Rules Question Thread

I think it’s more that Netrunner templating was a bit inconsistent before @jakodrako started getting on Lukas’s case about it. :slight_smile:

(Which is sort of why I’m harping on the specific language used in Slums/CtM, but I don’t really sweat earlier cards.)

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Sure it can. Femme, or Inside Job. :stuck_out_tongue:
(Kit’s early enough that I still handwave it and say her ability is whatever the designer says it is, conditional or constant.)

I’d actually say that if there’s a comma it can be conditional. Kit just says ‘The first piece of ICE you encounter each turn gains Code Gate in addition to its other types.’ Gabe says ‘The first time you make a successful run on HQ each turn , gain 2cr’

In general, for a Conditional ability, you’re looking for <Condition>, <Effect>

Whoops, I think I missed that. Sorry. I believe all replacement effects are conditional. Some have a “may” which means those must be conditional. Not sure if there are any paid-ability replacement effects.

Or maybe I’m misunderstanding the question?

It seems to me to be the same question as @Wiegraf 's Sneakdoor / R&D Apocalypse.

With sneakdoor, can the gamestate recorded successful run on archives be used for another card ?

If we’re considering “phantom trash” as a true result for CTM untriggering, then we should consider “phantom runs” results aswell.

With any effect that replace something, then that something could be used for/against another card now ?

I think that’s likely. :slight_smile:
Mostly I’m trying to get at if a Trigger will see the replaced event. If I have a Replacement Effect saying that ‘Next Event A is B instead’, and then Event A is about to happen… Does A happen, then not actually do anything and B happens instead? (This would cause any Triggered Ability looking for A to Trigger.) Or does A never happen, and B happens instead? (Triggered Abilities don’t see A because it never happened.)

I’m not sure as the verbiage used in this discussion, with “phantom” nonsense, is getting confusing, and I have other stuff to do today. :wink:

I’m not sure I follow the last part.

Oh, I gotcha. So, the condition for A is met, then is replaced with B, and A does not resolve. At least, that’s how I understand it from how Jacob and Damon have explained it.

Phantom as in the phantom “trash a card” replaced by RFG effect, used to untrigger CTM#2.
Phantom as in the phantom successfull run on archives recorded by the gamestate, replaced by a successfull run on HQ.

If you can use the first to untrigger a card then you should be able to use the second aswell.

And then you’ve got your reverse of reversal Crisium Grid vs Sectesting.

I don’t think so. I think you’re getting “the game ‘recording’ everything for posterity” and “cards triggering off things” confused.

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This is confusing, yes. Your answer too :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

If A never happens, then the runner never trashed a card with Slum.

Could we focus on one specific example again, so that we don’t try to conflate all the cards together that might not have the same effect? (EDIT: sorry, you edited your last post to do this)

Let’s do the Slums/CTM ruling.

Nothing about this is phantom. It’s a simple replacement effect for the trashing. As the trashing trigger meets its trigger condition (when you pay the trash cost), it happens, but is then replaced with Slums RFG. This is the same with any replacement effect.

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I will note that in my example, Event A isn’t necessarily a Condition, but just a Thing That Happens. (Like Making a Run, Accessing Cards, or Encountering ICE.)

Ah… Interesting. That would indicate that all Replacement Effects are Triggers. (Well, currently, anyway.) That’s going to get messy later on.

Mostly because how a card interaction works is going to change based on whose turn it is, at the current moment. (Which would indicate that if you AOYCR’d and trashed a card with Slums and CtM out, you’d get traced, and then RFG the card. Slums triggers first, but all it does is set up a Replacement Effect, which as we just went over, merely triggers on the Event it’s trying to replace, the Trashing of the card, the same time CtM Triggers. And since AOYCR, it’s the corp’s turn, so their effects go first.)

Glossary: AOYCR - An Offer You Can’t Refuse

As far as my monkey brain allows me to understand, yes. :smiley:

I super disagree with this.
You’re about to pay something, that something get replaced, then you never made that thing. The trigger happens when you pay, not when you trash. You’re in the cost phase of that process, not in the process or after it ???

Again, that’s not true.

I’m not sure you understand how trashing works. Paying the trash cost and the trashing are simultaneous, there is no “first pay a trash cost” then “wait for card to be trashed.” I think you’re getting the “access phase” confused for some sort of “trash phase.” See P.18 of the Core Rules.

Trash cost are not cost ?

I believe so too. But, if it’s the case, it’s a contradiction with this ruling.

If the second run with secu testing don’t work because a successful run on archive have already been recorded, then, it’s the same for apocalypse.

Well, it records the “first run on archives”–which is a constant ability created by Sneakdoor-- which is what Sec Testing looks for. But I mean, this is a really weird interaction and I’d like to hear Damon’s thoughts on it.

I can buy that having the word “gains” signifying a constant ability as it relates ice gaining subtypes and subroutines.

My rewording did have the word “gains”, but maybe you missed it. Or, maybe I’m misunderstanding your explanation. But don’t feel like you have to get in the weeds if you have other stuff you need to get done. Maybe someone else has a good explanation. So far @CrushU’s explanation about older cards just being inconsistent is the best explanation. Maybe Damon and/or @jakodrako will have another call to the community like Lukas’ to clean up the uninuitive ruling (i.e. how Caissa’s ruling was reversed).

I didn’t:

“The first time you encounter a piece of ice each turn, it gains code gate until the end of the run.”

The gains is contingent on the trigger “the first time you encounter a piece of ice each turn.” I suppose we could say that this condition creates a constant ability until the end of the run, which would probably be accurate.

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