The question is, essentially, “Does CTM Trigger on a Replaced Trash?” More generally, “Do Conditional Abilities trigger on an Effect before it is changed by a Replacement Effect?”
If it helps, think of that trash symbol being shorthand for “When this card is accessed, you may pay Xcr to Trash this card” where X is the number on the trashcan. The weirdness comes from Slums appearing to say “Once a turn, you can pay Xcr when accessing a card to remove it from the game.” but it apparently says “Once a turn, when you pay Xcr to trash a card, when that card is trashed, remove it from the game.”
Because Replacement Effects are triggers, you should be able to reword the effect as a ‘when’ phrase… Sneakdoor reads “Make a run on Archives. If successful, when resolving a successful Run on Archives, resolve a Successful Run on HQ.” SecTest reads “The first time you make a successful run on that server, when you access cards, gain 2cr and don’t access cards.” (Except SecTest has a weird priority thing where it definitely 100% is the first thing to happen…)
comes up for air Holy crap there’s weeds everywhere down here…
You all are way too focused on the wrong parts of this conversation. “First” is the operating word here. The game log records events that would have happened, even if the actual resolution ends up being different like with a replacement effect, “for posterity” as Chris said, because otherwise counting them would be pointless.
Sure, but the thing is: paying the trash cost is trashing the card. It’s not a paid ability like “pay trash cost: trash card” it’s “pay the trash cost to trash a card being accessed”. There’s no “when that card is trashed.” Paying the trash cost trashes the card. The payment and the trashing are the same. I’m not going to argue that the wording could be better but that’s how trashing works.
To me, given your qualifiers, it reads the way you say it apparently says it works (if that makes sense). Here is what Slums says:
Once per turn, when you pay the trash cost of an accessed card, remove that card from the game instead of trashing it.
We know from the Tori/Net Shield ruling, that replaced effects still count as having happened in the game log. For some reason, the fact that it has the replacement clause at the end of the sentence it seems to trip people up more than other replacement effects. It seems like people miss that it actually replaces the trashing part.
Yeah. The two most common misunderstandings of Slums are
(1) You “use” Slums to RFG something from the game. That’s not how it works. While you do “use” Slums in the Netrunner sense (to resolve an effect in which you must have made a choice to resolve), what’s actually happening is you are paying the trash cost of something in order to trash it, which triggers Slums. Big difference.
(2) For some reason people forget that “instead” indicates a replacement effect. “Instead” always indicates a replacement effect. It never indicates anything but a replacement effect.
Although I agree with your overall point, I would disagree in this case. As there have been more rules discussion around trashing cards as the print more effects in that area (Adam/Imp, PolOp, Councilman, Slums, CtM, etc.), it seems that there really is a process to trashing. Even Jacob’s game log example seems to indicate that:
Maybe in the future we’ll get a timing chart of access through trash.
EDIT: I also checked page 18 of the Core Rules, but I’m not sure if you were referring to something specific. It seems to just have a general description of trashing, that may be outdated with new cards:
Trashing Cards
If the Runner accesses a card with a trash cost, he may pay credits equal to its trash cost in order to trash it to Archives faceup.
Still my main problem with that chart is 2.2.
2.2 never happens, it’s replaced before it happens.
Sneakdoor or access trading is an exemple most of guys uses to say “hey it happens, then it’s replaced”, but actually the wording on Slum says it’s replaced before it’s trashed.
To me Slum wording indicates the moment of the replacement, and to me, it’s still very clear that it is in 2.1.something.
1: Slums replaces Trashing.
2: CtM Triggers on First Trashing.
3: ‘First Trash’ never happened, due to (1)
4: CtM hasn’t triggered yet.
5: CtM Triggers on Second Card Paid Trash Cost For, because this is the First Trashing.
I don’t even remember how I thought it worked at first. I just want to make sure I got everything straight.
Uhh. Ok so there seems to be confusion related to what ‘replaces’ means. For me, ‘replaces’ means that the original never existed. Apparently ‘replaces’ means existed and caused triggers, but doesn’t exist now?
That would be helpful. Netrunner is going through the same growing pains that Magic did when people wanted to know how the stack worked (way back in the day). As for the process, there may be a mechanical process to check how things are interacting, but these steps are likely more illustrative than exhaustive.
Again, you forget that the ability sets up the replacement effect for 2.2.
I was referring the quote you gave, which uses the prepositional phrase “in order do” which links the two actions. Best I can do given the literature.
I’m not trying to be mean, but this part is irrelevant. All that matters is what Damon and Lucus have said about these specific interactions we’re discussing, and theyre already made rulings on how they work. I swear to god, why on earth are there like 75 posts on something that Damon has already passed a ruling on is beyond me.
No. Like most replacement effects, they can often tell you what will be replaced, but the actual timing of the resolution depends on when the thing to be “traded” actually occurs. For example, access replacement effects usually trigger on successful run, telling you that you will trade your access for the different thing, but the different thing doesn’t actually occur until you would normally access. It doesn’t happen immediately.
There isn’t an official chart, as far as I know (or maybe there is somewhere!), these “charts” are illustrative to show you how the interaction works, step by step.
And, once again, for the last time: Slums’ ability (when you pay the cost) sets up a replacement effect to occur at trashing (which, to my mind, is simultaneous). Slums’s trigger is paying the cost, yes, but the replacement happens at the trashing.
This is forgetting those “instead of”. You trade an access for sectest. You trade a successfull run on archives for a successfull run on HQ with Sneakdoor.
You never accessed a card, and never succesfull archive ran for the purpose of cards texts there.
Sectest crisium gives 2c on second run on archives if you trash crisium. So this is 1st run on archives. So you never ran archives.
You surely cannot use Apo on Sneak + R&D, because that archive run was not successful.
But now, you’re saying replacement trah works for a card text.
I’m still waiting to understand how consistent this is. The only way for this is you have trade replacement that, for one reason, does the things how they work for Sneakdoor or Sectest, and a second category, some sort of stronger replacement with Slum, that is working with printed text.
I’m not making up something, it’s a consequence of this strange ruling.
but that’s how trashing works.
I just want to make sure I got everything straight.