Official Rules Question Thread

Rules Questions
3140

I’m totally fine with that. I don’t think it’s working like that too.
But, if the first run successful is not a condition checked by cards abilities, then, the ruling for Crisium Grid / security testing doesn’t work.

If the Runner chooses Archives for Security Testing, and the Corp has Crisium Grid installed there, can Security Testing be used?
When the Runner makes a run on a server with Crisium Grid, the run is still successful but it is seen as neither successful or unsuccessful for the purposes of card abilities.
Security Testing does not see that a successful run occurred. If the Runner trashes the Crisium Grid and then successfully runs Archives for a second time, the Security Testing triggers because it believes the first run was not successful or unsuccessful.

Like we see in this ruling, the checking of the first successful run is a card ability. And the second successful run on the server triggers Security Testing.
By the way, the precedent ruling was like that. The second run doesn’t trigger security testing because it was the second successul run. It’s not the case anymore.

(I’m sorry, english is not my mother tongue, so, i know that sometimes, it may be hard to understand what I want to say)

3141

Sort of a weird situation. I start my turn with Wyldside and Beth Kilrain in play, I’m playing against Palana with 9 credits, so both of them trigger. If I draw my Wyldside cards first, does Beth’s 5-9c ability disappear?

Similarly, you can’t use Citadel Sanctuary to remove the tag from Joshua B unless you’re already tagged before your turn ends?

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3142

I’m not sure I see the conflict. Apocalypse is a card, so any card abilities text affects it, including Sneakdoor. This ruling is consistent with the Sneakdoor/Apocalypse thing above. If you run RND and Sneakdoor, you would still need to make a successful run on archives for the purpose of card abilities to play Apocalypse.

3143

[OLD ANSWER: Because you choose the order, yes. You’d get her 10-14cr ability instead.]

NEW ANSWER: I believe that your constant abilities go first before your conditional triggers, so Beth fires, then Wyld draws.

What the heck is Citadel Sanctuary?

3144

Sorry, newly spoiled card

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3145

Correct, on that interaction: you’re not tagged until your turn ends with Josh, so you wouldn’t be able to Trace1.

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3146

If the Corp has 5-9c when your turn begins, gain 1c.

If the Corp has 10-14c when your turn begins, draw 1 card.

If the Corp has at least 15c when your turn begins, gain click.

This ability is laid out “If condition when trigger, do x”. During the “when your turn begins” only one of them will trigger alongside Wyldside (+1 credit). When I trigger Wyldside, the condition is no longer met to gain +1 credit, and the condition for the other ability (10-14c) wasn’t met when it could have triggered, so it doesn’t have the opportunity to trigger anymore. In my mind I should either get 1 credit because it already triggered (and Palana’s credit count no longer matters) or I should get nothing because the condition for the one that did trigger is no longer met.

I don’t think you draw a card with Beth. If that’s the case, then why wouldn’t I be able to clear the Joshua B tag?

Not enough coffee today… I’ve been talking about this with a friend via text for a few hours only to find out I misread both Beth and Citadel… and Underworld Contact which I was comparing them to.

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3147

The classic case of cards triggering at start of turn is Dyson Mem Chip on Supplier, Underworld Contact in play, starts turn with 1 Link. In this case, Supplier and UWC trigger, and if we resolve Supplier first to put mem chip in, we’ll have 2 link so we’d get 1 credit from UWC.

UWC’s trigger is different from Beth’s, though:
When your turn begins, gain 1cr if you have at least 2 Link.
(You already quoted Beth’s, not repeating it.)

The difference is the trigger conditions. Beth triggers specific abilities based on Corp credit pool, and thus the corp credit pool needs to still be within that condition in order to still resolve. Thus, if Beth triggers and something else also triggers that moves the Corp’s credit pool out of the range she triggered on, she won’t give you a benefit that turn.

(Realistically there isn’t much that could possibly cause that to happen. Your Wyldside/Beth vs Palana example would do it, except that since they’re both your triggers, you could choose to resolve Beth’s first. This does technically allow you to not take Beth’s ability vs Palana at certain credit thresholds if you wanted to for some reason, by resolving Wyldside first.)

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3148

Except that “If/when” abilities are constant. So all see the game state “when your turn begins.”

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3149

No, that isn’t the only difference. Another difference is the location of the condition, and, plausibly, when it’s evaluated as a result. They specifically broke their convention of “When TIME if X do Y” for, in Beth/Citadel’s case, “If X when TIME do Y”.

Previous precedence with supplier/underworld/link interactions are not inherently the same.

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3151

I’m sure Jake is working on the clarifications with new cards. I’m not going to speculate any further. All I know is that Beth’s ability is constant, so all of the “ifs” check the game state all the time. @jakodrako can either confirm or refute this interpretation, but that’s how I understand it working. I’d like to revise one thing I said before: because Beth is constant, it happens before Wyldside triggers resolve (constant abilities, we know, have priority). So Beth would trigger, gaining you 1, then you would draw 2 from Wyld.

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3152

I believe Beth and Citadel are the first constant-ability cards released that trigger in response to the exact same conditional as a conditional-ability card (I might be mistaken on that). Is there any previous precedent or ruling that shows that a constant ability triggering off of the same trigger as a conditional ability is forced to occur first?

3153

Pretty much the entire last discussion. :wink:

Sneakdoor + Security Testing is an example. Sneakdoor sets up a Constant ability to replace the successful Archives with successful HQ, so Security Testing doesn’t trigger. (If you normal-run Archives after that, SecTest will trigger on success and give monies.)

I was about to say the same thing. :slight_smile: I’m not experienced with identifying constant vs conditional. (Also I just want to note for the record how stupid it is to have Constant, Conditional, and Constant Conditional abilities. :wink: It should be either a thing that always affects the gamestate, or something that sometimes does… Anyway. Personal Objection logged.)

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3154

Can you use Fall Guy to suppress the trash trigger on Temujin Contracts or Armitage Codebusting so that you can sell the empty resource to Aesop later? (better than selling Fall Guy to Aesop directly if Tech Trader is in play)

3155

You can use Fall Guy, but the card your saving will still be immediately trashed, because there still aren’t any credits on it. I was going to say the ability to trash is constant, but decided to check and saw it was conditional. Still, there’s no reason it cannot trigger again after it’s been saved once.

3156

Security testing is also a card, and any card abilities text affects it.

You said: While the game might keep track of the Archives run for posterity, it doesn’t count for card abilities because a Sneakdoor run counts as a run on HQ.

The condition of security testing is a “card ability”, then, it must trigger the second time because this “first” run doesn’t count for card abilities.

3157

Ok, so I was reading the 100+ posts on Slums + CTM and I’m not sure I totally understood what’s going on (sorry to bring it up again! :P) but I’d like to understand what’s going on. I think I’ve kind of got the handle on both sides of the discussion (why CTM doesn’t trigger after Slums, but also what the hell the Apocalypse argument has to do with this…). I’ll try to explain the apparent contradiction here.

Scenario 1: CTM + Slums: Slums replaces the first trash by RFG. Runner trashes a second card. Does CTM trigger?

Scenario 2: Security Testing + Sneakdoor: I have Security Testing on Archives and I do a Sneakdoor run. Sneakdoor replaces the successful run on archives by a successful run on HQ, I get no moneys from Security Testing and I get to access HQ. I then run archives normally. Does Security Testing give me the 2 credits?

Scenario 3: Apocalypse + Sneakdoor: Successful Sneakdoor run, followed by an R&D run. Can you play Apocalypse?

The answer given to S1 is no, because it isn’t the first time a card is trashed. That’s fine.

The answer to S3 seems to obviously be no.

S3’s answer would imply that for S2, you would get the credits, since there hasn’t been a successful run on archives yet. But doesn’t that in turn imply, that there hasn’t been a trash in S1? And on the other hand, if you don’t get the credits in S2, fixing the problem between S1 and S2, doesn’t that allow you to play Apocalypse in S3?

I’m not sure what the solution to this apparent inconsistency is. I think this is what Wiegraf is going for, too. I’m probably missing something (perhaps obvious) in the 2nd scenario with Security Testing, but like I said, I’d like to understand this rules interaction better. I’m fine with the rulings individually, but I don’t see how they’re consistent.

The relevant card texts for reference:

CTM: The first time the Runner trashes an installed Corp card each turn, you may trace…

Slums: Once per turn, when you pay the trash cost of an accessed card, remove that card from the game instead of trashing it.

Sneakdoor: [click]: Make a run on Archives. If successful, instead treat it as a successful run on HQ.

Security Testing: When your turn begins, choose a server. The first time you make a successful run on that server this turn, instead of accessing cards gain 2c

Apocalypse: Play only if you made a successful run on HQ, R&D and Archives this turn.

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3158

My fan-theory is that “First”-effects are counted even though they are replaced, as otherwise things like Net Shield would be infinite use, but for all other purposes, the effects are not counted if they are replaced (So no apoc after Sneakdoor R&D). I’m sending a rules question mail to Damon at this moment to see if I can clarify this.

For the Beth-interaction, this is how I read it (might very well be wrong though):

The constant effect on Beth decides what text is actually on the card. So if the corp has 5-9 creds, Beth reads “When your turn begins, gain 1 credit”, etc. Therefore, when your turn begins, all Start of Turn effects raise their hands, including the effect on Beth (not the card itself, but the actual text on the card is what triggers).

If you then draw cards with WS, palana gains a credit and is now on 10, the Start-of-turn effect that had its hand raised dissapears, as it no longer exists. It can therefore not trigger.

You do gain another start of turn effect though, but this one does not have its hand raised, so cannot trigger. Did that make sense?

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3159

I love that figure of speech here! The theory itself seems plausible to me. It’s not needed for Net Shield (because preventing is not a replacement, afaik) but it does make sense when talking about Tori Hanzo. Would still love to hear from @jakodrako or @CJFM on this problem (two posts up). If Damon replies though, that’s great!

Edit: also this interpretation means no security testing archives after sneakdoor? @CrushU

3160

I think we’re saying the same thing: On a Crisium’d server, Security Testing triggers the second time. During an Apocalypse turn, Apocalypse does not see Sneakdoor runs on Archives as successful, and you would have to run Archives normally.

This is confirmed in the FAQ:

So, I’m not sure whether if you’re looking for confirmation or that you’re saying that it shouldn’t work that way.

(EDIT: I finally saw what you meant, having read RTsa’s post, I try to explain it below, to the best of my ability.)