Yeah, that’s the issue in a nutshell. The difference between the Apocalypse/Sneakdoor and Security Testing/Sneakdoor thing is that Sneakdoor creates a constant effect that makes any successful run on Arch, a successful run on HQ. It changes the rules for how the game sees archives runs, so, for the game’s ability, there has been no successful run on Archives except for posterity (so that we, meta people, can allow Sneakdoor to do its thing). Apocalypse merely “checks” to see if you’ve made a successful run on all three centrals when you play it. Because the successful run on Archives was replaced with HQ, it doesn’t see the successful run on archives (because the rules for how successful runs on archives were changed entirely. All that makes sense to us, so I’ll try to do my best with the Slums explanation (but FFG is not making it easy)).
The explanation of CTM + Slums is more clearly comparable to a double run on a Security Tested server.
Sec Testing on Archives: run → first successful run replaces access with 2 cr. Second run, just get access. (if there was a corp card that said: “the first time the runner accesses a card, do X” it would not trigger as there was no access)
Slums: pay cost, then trash → first trash replaced by RFG. Second trash, nothing.
So, what we’ve been doing is making false equivalencies in these rulings. The Sneakdoor/Sec Testing and Apocalypse issues are all about cards external to the effect that want to “see” the thing happening. In the Sneakdoor/Sec Testing case, Sec Testing just wants to “see” a successful run on the chosen server, which it never gets to do because that condition has been replaced entirely by a constant effect. Apocalypse can’t “see” a successful run on Archives with Sneakdoor because, for the same reason as with Testing, that condition has been replaced entirely by a constant effect, successful run on HQ.
I think understanding replacement effects is the key to your question.
In Android Netrunner a replacement effect takes a normal resolution and
prevents it from fully resolving and inserts a new resolution in its
place. The initiating thing must have started in order for the
replacement to take effect, so anything that checks on “first time” will
have met its trigger, but anything that looks at the result as having
been successful will fail to find a proper resolution.
Salsette Slums will take a trash attempt of the Runner’s choice and
remove the card from the game. NBN: Controlling the Message looks to see
if the first card to be trashed is trashed. If that trash does not
successfully happen then it cannot resolve, and the second card to be
trashed is no longer the first card. Think about it as the entire
trigger opportunity being missed.
I wouldn’t think about replacement effects being faster per se, they
simply alter an effect during its resolution. Anything that responds to a
thing successfully resolving cannot trigger until after that resolution
has finished. It doesn’t matter whose turn it is, or who has priority
if only one replacement effect is needing to be resolved.
So, near as I can find, there are three classes of Conditional ability: Prevent/Avoid, Constant, and Conditional (sometimes called ‘Triggered’ abilities incorrectly.) The three types have the same priority as listed (Prevent/Avoid happens before Constant happens before Conditional.)
For one run that has all three of them happening, you can have a Sneakdoor run with Tori Hanzo and Hokusai Grid on HQ, and a Net Shield installed. FAQ has stated specifically that Tori/Hokusai have to be on HQ to trigger with Sneakdoor. This is because Sneakdoor is Constant and Hokusai is just Conditional. Net Shield is a Prevent/Avoid effect. So! We have a Successful Run on Archives that Sneakdoor’s Constant changes into a Successful Run on HQ. This causes Hokusai to trigger and attempt to deal a Net Damage. Both Tori and Net Shield trigger at this point, but Net Shield will resolve first because Prevent/Avoid resolve first in this scenario, regardless of whose turn it is. If the damage is prevented, Tori will not trigger again during the run, because it has already triggered. (i.e. if they hit a Shock in HQ)
I believe we need more information on Replacement Effects in the FAQ. I can extrapolate and conjecture that Replacement Effects will always happen before a Trigger looking for that same condition that the Replacement is replacing, but the rules don’t actually say that. I think this is the piece I was missing before and answers why CtM won’t trace vs Slums even if it’s Corp’s turn.
(For Sneakdoor+SecTest, Sneakdoor is a Constant and SecTest is a Conditional. Sneakdoor modifies the successful Archives run before SecTest can trigger (resolve all Constant before Conditional), that’s why the second, ‘normal’ Archives run will trigger SecTest. From this, I can extrapolate that Replacement Effects are not Constant, or at least that Slums isn’t Constant.)
To make sure I understand this properly, if there were a card that said ‘The first card trashed each turn is removed from the game instead.’, that would be a Constant ability that would cause CtM to still trigger on the second card?
I made my peace with this ruling, and I actually like the logic that has been put behind it, because it works in some other cases as I would expect it to work.
The best example I can think of is Sneakdoor Beta + Apocalypse. Sneakdoor Beta turns a successful run on Archives into a successful run on HQ, but does not count as a successful run on both servers to trigger Apocalypse. This is because of the replacement effect of a successful run on Archives becoming a successful run on HQ. It can’t register the Sneakdoor run as a successful run on Archives to activate Apoc, since it was a successful run on HQ instead.
This is how I would expect the logic to work in this case, and it seems to translate well enough into the CtM v Slums scenario.
Cheers! That seems to be in line with your “fan-theory”, I’m not sure why you’re unconviced.
When my Scenario 2 is evalued in light of Damon’s explanation, doesn’t it mean Sec Testing will NOT trigger during a normal run on archives if there has been a successful Sneakdoor run?
Make a run. Trash the first non-agenda card you access during this run at no cost. The Corp can spend credits equal to the rez or play cost of the accessed card to prevent this trash.
How does the timing of the bolded effect work? If I access something with 0 rez or play cost, the corp will likely pay 0 to prevent that card from being trashed. Do I still have the opportunity to pay the normal trash cost? In what order would I carry out the no-cost trash vs. Chrysalis?
If Chrysalis is accessed from R&D, the Runner must reveal it.
When the Runner accesses Chrysalis, he or she encounters it. Ignore this ability if the Runner accesses Chrysalis from Archives.
->Do 2 net damage.
Related to the above, I found the Lukas ruling for Imp + Snare!
No. The card must be accessed before Imp can be used to trash it, and so the conditional triggered abilities on Snare! et al. will resolve before the Runner can trash the card with Imp.
Does this ruling still jive with the later clarifications of non-paid abilities? Imp and Snare! seem to both be constant effects (neither starts with “When…” or equivalent), and both trigger off of accessing the card. Runner effects happen first on the runners turn, why doesn’t this result in Imp firing first? Are “When accessed” effects just treated as some weird special case?
Imp is a conditional ability that happens during access. The main thing is, the moment you access, the Crysalis triggers. It is an “on access” (wording is “when the runner accesses Crysalis”).
Credit Crash is a constant ability, but it only happens once you get to the access phase, which is after all “on access” triggers happen. So yeah, same interaction as Imp + Snare or Imp + Fetal/TFP.
The correct taxonomy of ability types is as follows.
All abilities are either:
Constant
OR Triggered. All triggered abilities are either:
Conditional
OR Paid.
Some paid abilities are click abilities and thus actions.
Any ability can be a prevent/avoid ability.
##Constant Abilities##
Constant abilities just are. They don’t adhere to a condition>trigger>resolve structure, they simply occur if and when they apply. Constant abilities generally describe states of being, but they can also stipulate specific “conditions” (not to be confused with trigger conditions) under which they apply, such as “while the Runner is tagged.” Assume any ability that is not in the form “cost: effect” is a constant ability unless it falls under a specific timing structure of some kind (more on that below). Constant abilities include ones that use if, while, and until.
##Triggered Abilities##
In contrast to constant abilities, triggered abilities are ones that can only apply when a specific trigger condition of some kind is met. This includes all paid abilities and any non-paid ability with a specific timing condition that triggers it.
###Paid Abilities###
Paid abilities are the easy ones - they are always written as “cost: effect”, meaning you must pay the cost in order to trigger the effect. Paid abilities can only be triggered during the specified paid ability windows in the timing structures.
If a paid ability costs 1 or more click, then it is a click ability, and as such it can only be used as an action during the action phase.
###Conditional Abilities###
Conditional abilities are the weird ones. They have all the extra rules that we know and “love”, especially when it comes to simultaneous effects. All conditional abilities define their trigger condition in their text. Usually, this takes the form of when or whenever, but it also includes such structures as before, after, unless, and “the first time’” (note that this is not the same thing as the first ice, or the first program, etc.). You can usually tell an ability is conditional if it has a comma in it separating two clauses, one being the trigger condition and the other being the effect.
Conditional abilities have three steps to their resolution:
Trigger condition met - A trigger is what separates a conditional ability from a constant one. While a constant ability would just happen immediately once it becomes relevant, a conditional ability essentially waits and listens for its trigger condition. When that trigger condition occurs, the ability then prepares to resolve.
Trigger - A triggered conditional ability is one that will resolve. Once triggered, an ability exists independently of its source. This is the “point of no return” for the resolution of an ability.
Resolve - The actual resolution of a conditional ability is when its effects take place. The exact timing of the resolution of a conditional ability can vary from its trigger condition, especially in situations involving simultaneous effects.
Now, normally steps 1 and 2 are concurrent. HOWEVER! this is not always the case. If there are ever simultaneous effects, then steps 1 and 2 can have a pretty wide segment of time between them. This is where the weirdness occurs. When there are more than one active ability that care about any specific moment in the game, then you must follow all the steps individually instead of immediately triggering and resolving an ability. Why does this matter? Namely it’s because the order of operations can sometimes matter - whether it’s because both players control some of the simultaneous effects or because the order of operations can affect whether or not parts some of the abilities can even resolve. The other important reason it matters is because during step 1 a trigger condition can become invalid before step 2 occurs - this causes the ability to fizzle and never move to step 3.
EXAMPLE TIME! Consider two classic scenarios.
The Runner has Wyldside and Aesop’s Pawnshop installed. Both have abilities with trigger conditions “when your turn begins”. Because they share a trigger condition, both will meet their trigger conditions at the same time (step 1). Both Wyldside and Aesop’s are Runner abilities, so the Runner chooses the order they will trigger in. The Runner chooses Aesop’s first, so Aesop’s triggers first (step 2). Aesop’s then resolves, and the Runner chooses to trash Wyldside (step 3). There are still simultaneous effects to worry about, so next up is Wyldside, which is still stuck back at step 1! So Wyldside goes next, but lo and behold, it is no longer active, so its ability fizzles. It never reached the all important step 2, so it can’t continue onto step 3 either.
The Runner has a Femme Fatale installed, targeting a Tollbooth. Both have abilities with trigger condition “when the Runner encounters Tollbooth”. Because they share a trigger condition, both will meet their trigger conditions at the same time (step 1). It’s the Runner’s turn, so the Runner goes first with Femme (step 2). Its ability resolves, and the Runner pays 1Cr to bypass the Tollbooth (step 3). There are still simultaneous effects to worry about, so next up is the Corp’s ability on Tollbooth, which is still at step 1. Tollbooth is still active, so that’s good, BUT! the trigger condition is no longer valid. The Runner is no longer encountering Tollbooth, so its ability fizzles. It never reached step 2, so it can’t continue onto step 3 either.
The most important feature of this to remember is that only an ability that has triggered (reached step 2) is one that must resolve. If an ability never gets to step 2 for any reason - because its trigger condition is no longer valid, because the card its on is no longer active, or whatever - then it will never resolve because it will never reach step 3. This forms the basis of a great number of rules answers in Netrunner.
##Key Points##
Constant abilities are faster than conditional abilities
Conditional abilities do not always necessarily trigger at the precise moment that their trigger condition is met
Once triggered, an ability exists independently from its source
In order for an ability to trigger, the card the ability is on must be active (and not blank, thanks FFG) AND the trigger condition must remain relevant all the way up until the card begins resolving
##Bonus Weirdness##
But Jake! Some abilities use both constant ability words and conditional ability words in them. How do I figure out how an ability works if it says both “if” and “when” somewhere in it?
Abilities that both say “if” and “when” in them are still conditional abilities, not constant ones. The “if” in this case modifies how the ability works in some way. There are two ways that these types of abilities can work, and it all depends on where in the ability the “if” is.
If the “if” part of an ability is in the trigger clause (e.g. “When X if Y, do Z” or “If Y when X, do Z”), then it is a conditional ability in which Y must be true at time X in order for the ability to trigger. For example, Quantum Predictive Model says “If the Runner is tagged when Quantum Predictive Model is accessed, add it to your score area.” The Runner must be tagged at the time the access occurs in order for this ability to trigger. If the Runner isn’t tagged at that time, then QPM never triggers in the first place, and if the Runner becomes tagged at any point after the access occurs then the ability can’t go back and trigger retroactively.
If the “if” part of an ability is in the effect clause (e.g. “When X, do Z if Y”), then it is a conditional ability that will always meet its trigger condition X, but Z will only occur if Y is true when the ability resolves. For example, Underworld Contact says “When your turn begins, gain 1Cr if you have at least 2L.” Underworld always meets its trigger condition at the start of the Runner’s turn, but when it resolves the Runner only gains 1Cr if they have the 2L at that time. If the Runner doesn’t have 2L when Underworld meets its trigger condition, but by the time it triggers the Runner does have 2L, then the 1Cr is gained.
The initiating thing must have started in order for the
replacement to take effect, so anything that checks on “first time” will
have met its trigger, but anything that looks at the result as having
been successful will fail to find a proper resolution.
So, am I understanding this right:
initiating a thing counts as the ‘first time it happens’ so your window is opened, but it doesn’t count enough for it to count as ‘it happens’ so you can’t actually use it, yet it still uses up your window. It’s the first occurrence of an event … it’s just not a real occurrence. It happened both once, and not at all.
If that’s correct, then … seriously?..what the actual fuck.
I don’t understand how it needs to be (or can reasonably be) any more complicated than “if it’s replaced, it never happened”. I don’t have to start something to replace it, it just needs to be imminent.
Note about Damon’s response “NBN: Controlling the Message looks to see
if the first card to be trashed is trashed.” - where does it say or imply that? That seems like a bit of a re-interpretation there.
I’m not sure if I have permission to do that, and if I do then I don’t know how.
I could edit the opening post to link to it, but nobody reads the opening post.
So I dunno
Anyway, to bring it all together, and hopefully clear this whole thing up once and for all:
The full break down for the first time the runner trashes an installed corp card and then uses Salsette Slums to remove it from game can be found below. (Mostly copied from up thread, but with better terminology.)
1. The runner pays the trash cost of the card to trash it 1.1. Salsette Slums meets its trigger condition and triggers 1.1.1. Salsette Slums resolves and puts its replacement effect into play 2. The card is trashed 2.1. Both Salsette Slums and Controlling the Message care about this game event. CtM meets its trigger condition, but has not yet triggered because there is a simultaneous effect to resolve first. 2.1.1. The constant effect from Salsette Slums is faster than triggered abilities. It replaces the card being trashed with removing that card from the game. 2.1.2. CtM goes to trigger and can't because its trigger condition is no longer met.
… Sometime later that turn …
42. The runner pays the trash cost of a second card to trash it 43. The card is trashed
And that’s it. Nothing else to record in the game log. Controlling the Message can see that its trigger condition isn’t being met by step 43 because this is the second time its trigger condition would have been met.
I don’t agree with what you said here because of a personal, nebulous, undefined reason. I’m probably gonna need another 50 or so posts, if that’s fine? We’ll see how I feel at the end, but no promises!
