Official Rules Question Thread

Rules Questions
3409

Though, on further consideration, my previous interpretation doesn’t jive with being able to use multiple OotA in a single turn. If you can use multiple OotA in one turn, I can’t fathom why you wouldn’t be able to use DB + Doppel, and my explanation for why multiple Encores doesn’t work loses some credibility.

The UFAQ states that you can make multiple OotA runs:

Question: Can the Runner use more than one copy of Out of the Ashes when their turn begins?

Answer: Yes, each Out of the Ashes triggers separately from each other. Each copy is finished resolving only after the run has ended, at which time the Runner can resolve another copy (or any other “when your turn begins” abilities).

Don’t think I understand. Previously in this thread, we said that “make a run” only initiates a run. If “make a run” sees a run through to completion, then HSJ and DL do not work (as I said previously).

(Link to previous discussion: Official Rules Question Thread - #3246 by ironcache)

To make multiple OotA runs cohere with our discussion about HSJ/DL, you would need to interpret it in a manner that card effects that “make a run” inject a run into the game state (deferring other “when begins” effects), but within the card effect itself, “make a run” just means to initiate a run (from which you can then proceed to the next step in the card effect). This likely means my comment above about Jak Sinclair is incorrect.

But, even if you do take this interpretation (which seems odd to me), I don’t see how you end up in a position where multiple OotA does work, but DB into Doppel into DB doesn’t work.

Maybe something to do with the fact that OotA depends on “when your turn begins” (which we haven’t necessarily progressed beyond) vs. DB/Doppel depending on when this run ends (which we have progressed beyond)? Could be a similar situation for Encore in that regard (IE: activate 1 Encore, take another turn, activate second encore, already progressed beyond last turn ending, so fails)?

But this would mean that Doppel/Stim would let you get away with no repercussions on Stim (as previously mentioned). This cannot be correct.

Do we have confirmation anywhere that Damon actually made that Doppel/DB ruling? I’ve only seen reference to it here, and it seems to contradict known interactions.

Anyway, I’m confused; I’ll have to bow out until someone with a better understanding than me can explain it.

1 Like
3410

Yeah, I have no idea what you were trying to argue. You wait for one trigger to resolve before doing the next if they have the same trigger condition. It’s always been like that.

DB into Doppel into DB works. Why wouldn’t it? I’m not sure I follow. Are you saying you want to interrupt the first successful run with Doppel and then complete the DB trigger?

3411

It’s not me that wants anything; it was mentioned all of 8 posts up that this was ruled by Damon…

I merely tried to come up with a way to make that cohere with the rest of Netrunner (which I couldn’t, so I’m suspecting it wasn’t actually ruled).

You seem to be of the same mindset, so I’m confused about what’s confusing to you.

3412

Is THIS what you’re referring to? because I don’t see this as a ruling that affects Data Breach or Doppelganger in any way whatsoever.

What I’m seeing is verbiage in this discussion that is attempting to cause more harm to the rules than to help elucidate their application. The Encore ruling has nothing to do with Doppelganger or Data Breach.

The language is what gives it away:

Encore reads “take an extra turn”
Data breach reads “make another run”
Doppelganger reads “make another run”

They’re not the same, at all.

3413
3414

Where is this mysterious ruling? You just linked to someone stating that there was one. Call me skeptical, but people do that all the time: they think that there’s a ruling when there’s not.

3415

So, yeah, I’m calling bullshit on this “ruling.” What you CAN’T do is interrupt Data Breach with a Doppelganger run and then get the second Data Breach run. What you CAN do is finish the Data Breach and THEN trigger the Doppelganger run, because it’s up to you when to use it.

So, if people are trying to be intentionally dense by making plays that are illegal when there are perfectly legal plays available that have the exact same result as the illegal play, the problem is with the player.

3416

He’s saying the same thing as you with his comment (at least that’s my interpretation; nobody would contest that you can do DB - DB - Doppel).

How can you justify being able to do multiple OotA in one turn, but not DB - Doppel - DB?

Doing DB - DB - Doppel is not the same as DB - Doppel - DB… say I have 1 click left and 8 credits. Takes me 5 to break into R&D. DB - Doppel - DB lets me run ST in between and get my money to get two successful DB runs. DB - DB - Doppel would result in the second DB run failing (or, more likely, not being taken).

3417

Because

  1. multiple OotA are triggers waiting for their resolution, you can trigger one, then another, then another.
  2. DB tells you that you must choose to either make a run after its first or to not. It’s a MAY ability, if you do not make that run immediately after the first, you chose not to.
  3. in your example, your’e interrupting a card ability with another triggered ability. This is not even REMOTELY close to the example of multiple OotA.
3418

How it works is actually almost identical.

2x OotA Flow

Out of the Ashes

[When your turn begins], if Out of the Ashes is in your heap, you may remove it from the game to [make a run].

  • Turn begins; both OotA trigger conditions met; added to evaluation set.
  • Trigger OotA #1: Make a run.
  • […]
  • Run ends. Go back to resolving triggers.
  • Trigger OotA #2: Make a run.

DB + Doppel Flow

Data Breach

Make a run on R&D. [If successful], you may [make another run] on R&D [when this run ends].

Doppelganger

Once per turn, you may immediately [make another run] [when a successful run ends].

DB works no differently than any other “if successful” run event. It does two things:

  1. Start a run.
  2. Set up a constant-speed ability that triggers on success.

So the flow is:

  • Play DB; running R&D.
  • […]
  • Run successful; DB and Doppel “when” effects now available.
  • […]
  • Run ends; both DB and Doppel effects trigger condition met; added to evaluation set.
  • Trigger Doppel: Make a run.
  • […]
  • Run ends. Go back to resolving triggers.
  • Trigger DB: Make a run on R&D.

Results

Pretty similar, no? Exact same rational used in your point (1) for OotA applies to DB + Doppel.

Your point (2) is right; you do choose to make that run or not. That doesn’t mean you can’t evaluate Doppel before you’re forced to make that consideration. Nothing about DB expresses that it has to be evaluated first.

3419

Yeah, your example is full of holes. It’s “mostly” similar in that runs happen. I think everyone needs to take a step back and reread the cards and strive to have a better understanding of how the game works.

Here they are for your perusal.

Actually, not at all similar. And you keep bracketing the important parts of the card, it would appear, to obfuscate the card’s wording. Data Breach specifies that you may make another run on R&D when this run ends. You may not, therefore, make a run after another run (i.e. one made by Doppelganger) ends.

Data Breach creates a constant ability whose resolution of the “if successful” is part of that constant ability.

When you play Data Breach, a constant ability is set up, much like in Account Siphon, where the “if successful” is directly tied to the success of that run. This is not new information. “If successful” effects on Run Events have long been associated with that Event’s initial run.

Here’s Doppelganger. Read the card.

Doppelganger is a conditional ability that is triggered when “a successful run ends.”

They do not have the same wording (“if successful”) and the Doppelganger is not part of some existing constant ability. Therefore, you may choose to use the Doppel, foregoing the “may” ability of Data Breach. You may also choose to finish Data Breach’s “may” ability and then trigger Doppel. You may not interrupt Data Breach with a Doppel and then choose to use Data Breach because the condition for its resolution when this run ends is no longer available.

There is no validity to your hypothetical situations. No number of lists, no matter how detailed, can make them legal moves, because they are not taking into account the cards as they are written, and the existing rules as we know them.

Simply: these cards do NOT have the same trigger condition. Data Breach’s second ability triggers on “if successful”, setting up a constant ability. Doppelganger’s conditional trigger happens once when “a successful run ends.” Because Data Breach is a constant ability, choosing to not use it means you don’t get it again.

3420

Let’s look at how OotA works.

All Out of the Ashes cards have the same trigger “when your turn begins.”

Because the “when your turn begins” trigger causes all these conditional cards to raise their hands, they may then be resolved in any order as long as we have not moved beyond the start of turn.

Start of turn triggers

Play one OotA from heap. Run ends.

Play one OotA from heap. Run ends.

We’re still at Start of turn here, so you could then take money from Daily Casts, if you have not. You can then use The Supplier, if you have not.

The orders you do things in does not really matter when all of the cards have the same trigger condition.

3421

The notion that “end of run” triggers cannot be deferred until after Doppel interjection is trivially proven incorrect.

Doppel + DB

Run ends; both DB and Doppel effects trigger condition met; added to evaluation set.
Trigger Doppel: Make a run.
[…]
Run ends. Go back to resolving triggers.
Trigger DB: FAILS (doesn’t proc because of the Doppel run interjection).

Doppel + Stim

Stimhack

Make a run, and gain 9, which you may use only during this run. [After the run is completed], suffer 1 brain damage (cannot be prevented) and return to the bank any of the 9 not spent.

Run ends; both Stim and Doppel effects trigger condition met; added to evaluation set.
Trigger Doppel: Make a run.
[…]
Run ends. Go back to resolving triggers.
Trigger Stim: FAILS (doesn’t proc because of the Doppel run interjection).

Obviously, this is not how it works.

This is also incorrect. DB does the following:

  • Make a run.
  • If Successful (constant):
    • you may make another run on R&D when (conditional) this run ends.

Basically, DB sets up a constant ability which then sets up a conditional ability (similar to how slums is a conditional ability that sets up a constant).

Both Doppel and DB’s run end effects are conditional, not constant.

Hope that clarifies the situation.

3422

I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Give me an example?

Basically you’re saying that you can ignore the wording on the card. Seems wrong.

What I see you doing is making up rules. You’re assuming that because both cards have the words “end of run” they MUST work the same! Nothing about what I’ve said is trivial. The fact that you’re ignoring the card’s wording is what makes your argument trivial.

3423

Did you consider reading the example below the quoted text?

EDIT: I’m glad you at least took the time to read it and edit your response in.

3424

“when this run ends”

Did this run end? Or another one?

If you Doppel inbetween, another run has ended. Sorry, the trigger condition is not met.

3425

I’m certain that you really want cards to work the way you see them working. That’s fine, but you’re still wrong. If you are ignoring the words on the cards, it’s your error, not mine. Your example doesn’t even matter because you still have not been able to explain why you can Data Breach after another run ended (that wasn’t the one initiated by Data Breach). Go ahead, I’ll wait.

3426

I’ll explain it again, but I doubt much will come of it.

I’ve never stated that you can Data Breach in response to another run ending. When a run ends, you have to put all the effects that trigger in response to that in an evaluation set, to be evaluated in the order of your choice. This is a pretty common concept (happens with a lot of “When your turn begins” triggers).

So, when the first DB run ends, you have to consider two things; your Doppelganger, and your DB. They are both conditional-speed abilities, so you choose the ordering. You proc Doppelganger first, and follow it through. Then you proc DB, and follow it through. Both are being evaluated in response to the same run (which is the initial DB run).

So, a potential counter argument is that if you continue onto another run, the triggers that proc from the last run are invalidated. But this can’t be the case, because we know that we can’t use Doppelganger to invalidate Stimhack (another conditional ability that procs end of run). So this counter argument is incorrect.

No differently than Stim must be evaluated if interjected by Doppel, so too must DB.

But I’ve already said all that; you’re not convinced, right?

If you look at my past on this forum, you’ll see that there are plenty of times where I’ve legitimately seen that I was incorrect on my stances on this forum, and I’ve acknowledged my error and pivoted because of it. I have yet to see you do anything similar. It is, after all, hard to be wrong, when you’re certain you’re right.

It is you who wants the cards to work the way you see them working, and I am not capable of proving to you that they don’t (certainly, I doubt anyone is).

3427

First, stop using the term “interjected” like it’s a term used in Netrunner. It’s not. Stop using “evaluation set” as though that’s an official designated term. It’s not.

I will explain where you’re wrong because, again, you’re not paying attention to the cards. I have many times admitted where I’m wrong, but perhaps you just wish to flame people.

  1. You cannot proc DB off of Doppelganger. It only works with its run event. It’s not a “potential counter argument” - it’s the only situation that makes sense given that the condition for DB’s “if successful” trigger is “when this run ends.” You cannot, therefore, “proc” it off some other run. That’s simply how it works. The words are there. On the card. Data Breach may have raised it’s hand, expecting to resolve, but because it does not meet its condition of “when this run ends” anymore, it does not resolve.

  2. Let’s look at Doppelganger and Stimhack.

Doppelganger triggers when the run ends, stimhack on “when the run is completed,” which I assume is Core set nonsense for “when the run ends.”

Because both have the same trigger condition–assuming that these are the same triggers-- they may be resolved in the order of the player’s choice. This is not true of DB and Doppel. They are _not _the same trigger condition.

  1. Let’s look at Doppelganger and DRT.

This one is easy. Same trigger condition, but different player: the runner’s trigger goes first, corp’s second.

Again, in bold words:

Data Breach does not have the same trigger condition as Doppelganger. They do not trigger off the same effect.

3428

Data Breach and Doppelganger do trigger off the same effect; the initial DB run ending.

You do not trigger DB when successful (not meaningfully, at least). To make this clear, you get to access before deciding if you’ll use your second DB run. We agree here, right? You aren’t forced to take another run past Komainu to interact with the Himitsu on top of R&D again because you took the gamble and said “yes” on success, right?

Though really, even that is a moot point; the If successful clause just sets up a conditional ability that you evaluate when the run ends. Regardless of if you were to say you’re forced to choose upon success (which I’m fairly confident is wrong), the fact is that the actual run (or, actually, run + choice) is the result of a conditional ability that pops in response to the run ending.

Which is the exact same timing as Doppelganger.