Scrubbed will work too, because it applies the -2 for the remainder of the run.
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We finally got a clarification on the internal workings that describe the differences between how Street Peddler and Allele Repression work on BGG a few days ago, since I don’t see any mention of it here, so I’ll post it here as well:
When you trigger a trash ability the ability resolves as if the game state is frozen in place, except the trashed card is basically a new copy of itself since it is in the heap or Archives. So Allele Repression can return itself because it does not see itself, it just sees a copy of itself in Archives. So, in effect, the game state is not frozen before the cost is paid, it is frozen as a result of the cost being paid. The freeze, in effect, is the fastest state in the game and overrides the trashing of the hosted cards until the ability is resolved. I think the easiest way to think of it is the game enters limbo immediately following the triggering of the trash ability, and only resolves that ability and chain reactions from that ability. Hope that helps,
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Well this is sort of consistent with the Spike / Wraparound ruling.
I’m not sure that explains the Street Peddler or Allelle Repression ruling, does it?
It doesn’t make sense for Allelle Repression. Allelle Repression is trashed and moves to Archives as part of the cost. Game is frozen as a result of the cost being paid, hosted tokens aren’t trashed yet. The triggered effect from Allelle Repression looks and sees a copy of Allelle Repression in Archives. Fine. Now swap as many cards as there are tokens hosted on Allelle Repression. What? Allelle Repression (self-referential) doesn’t exist! As Lukas states there is a copy of it in Archives, but that’s not the same.
How would that pan out for our old friend Street Peddler? Street Peddler is trashed and moves to the Heap as part of the cost. Game is frozen as a result of the cost being paid, hosted cards aren’t trashed yet. Now the Street Peddler effect looks for cards hosted on itself (self-referential effect). It can’t see itself, so there are no cards hosted on it. The cards hosted on the piece of cardboard that used to be Street Peddler (self-referential to the effect) but is now just any old copy of Street Peddler and in the Heap are still hosted there (while the game is frozen), but they can’t be installed. They’re on a different copy of the card!
It seems to me that the only thing that possibly make it all make sense is if during the “game frozen” stage when the paid effect resolves, there are two copies of the same card that simultaneously exist, one installed prior to paying the trash cost and one in the Archives/Heap after paying the trash cost (and any hosted items remain on the installed version while the effect plays out).
(As an aside, I wonder what the triggered effect of “trash host items when a host card is trashed” counts as for timing purposes. Is it a triggered effect “owned” by the player whose card it is? So should they be able to choose the order of its resolution with other co-triggers? Is it an ownerless triggered effect that happens after all player effects have happened? Or is it something else?)
I think because the “game state is frozen” it knows which cards, number of counters, etc. it has to resolve the ability. I don’t think the card itself needs to know, just the game state. We’ve had ghost effects in the game from the beginning (i.e. trashing Sneakdoor Beta during a run on Archive after using it’s ability).
I appreciate that, but it can’t work for both Allelle Repression and Street Peddler, can it?
Lets say that the effect is put into play when the trash cost happens (before the trash cost is carried out). Like you say, it’s similar to Keyhole or Sneakdoor Beta disappearing during the run.
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We could conceive that the entire effect is resolved with reference to the state when the effect was created (before the trash cost got paid). In other words the game remembers everything at the time of the effect creation and sets it in stone for the purposes of the triggered effect at that point: counters on Allelle Repression, cards on Street Peddler, and cards in Archives and HQ for Allelle Repression.
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Alternatively, we could conceive that the effect gets put into play before the trash cost is paid, but we don’t check all the bits of it until it becomes time to resolve it after the trash cost is paid.
For Street Peddler, we need the effect to resolve with respect to the pre-trash state (hosted condition of cards on the self-referential version of Street Peddler).
For the number of tokens on Allelle Repression, we need the effect to resolve with respect to the pre-trash state (ditto).
For the chosen Archives cards for Allelle Repression, we need the effect to resolve with respect to the post-trash state.
The cards on Street Peddler don’t go to archives until after the Trash is resolved. Peddler would be a copy of itself in the archives then, until it resolved, for the purposes of the card ability.
Allelle, in the same way, would see itself as a copy and could return itself.
The difference is that you’re seeing “the card with the cost” and the “cards that are part of the effect” as the same.
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I think the best way to look at it is if there’s a virtual card that takes the place of the original when you trash as part of it’s cost.
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The way I read Lukas’ explanation:
- The card itself for both Street Peddler and Allele Repression go to the heap and archives, respectively right away. The card is a now considered a new copy. This is nothing new from the Self-Destruct ruling. The cards being considered a new copy is not new from the Net-Ready Eyes ruling.
- As a result of the trash cost being paid, the game state is frozen. The game knows that Allele Repression has x counters and that Street Peddler has cards A, B, C on it. The explanation is new, but the effect has been around since Creation and Control (i.e. Thomas Haas et al). You can think of at as a virtual card that hosts them, as @Tundinator suggests, or they’re floating waiting to resolve, but the game knows how they are connected (similar to Sneakdoor Beta being trashed, etc.).
- Chain reactions resolve (i.e. hosted tokens go to the bank, hosted cards go to the heap).
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I think the “virtual card” idea is another way of saying what I said earlier, that it only works if the card exists simultaneously in two places at once!
- At whatever time the details of the effect get assessed (hosted cards/tokens and contents of Archives) the trashed card must exist as a still-installed copy of itself in play. Lukas specifically says that host-destruction trashing is on hold while the effect resolved, but cards A, B and C must be hosted on an installed version of Street Peddler, not the “copy” that’s in Archives, since Blacklist doesn’t stop cards being installed from Street Peddler and hosted cards are in the same place as the host card (see Awakening Centre for ICE being “in” the server).
- At whatever time the details of the effect get assessed, the trashed card must exist as a now-trashed copy of itself in Archives. Otherwise, Allelle Repression couldn’t return itself.
It doesn’t really matter what particular time the effect is assessed (either when the effect is initiated by paying the cost, or after resolving the cost by trashing), at that time the card must exist in two places for the thing to work. Even just for Allelle Repression itself to work, this is the case: assessing the tokens on Allelle Repression needs it to be installed since the effect won’t self-reference a new copy in Archives, even if the tokens are still hosted on it, yet assessing which cards are in Archives (and available for swapping) requires it to be in Archives.
Do we really need two copies if the game keeps track of which cards and how many counters the host has?
The card is different from the effect. Sneakdoor’s effect can still happen even if it’s trashed during the run. The textbox on Street Peddler and Alelle is essentially their “effect” and that floats in the air as soon as it’s activated. Trashing the Peddler causes a few things to happen starting with trashing the peddler but because of this ruling the universe is immediately paused after Peddler goes into the trash. This doesn’t mean you have to have two copies of Peddler, since its effect has been instantiated and is floating around in the game state, maintaining a relationship with the cards that were hosted on Peddler but haven’t fallen into the trash yet (because the ability triggered by the trash is going to resolve first before anything happens). I think you’re intuitively thinking about the cards and the feeling is that physically the cards that are on Street Peddler have to move before Street Peddler does since they’re on it, and that physical notion is informing your mechanical understanding. However, the Peddler underneath is the first thing to move into the trash, with the cards hosted on Peddler still in play and still hosted on Street Peddler’s instance since their trashing is a result of Peddler going into the trash and can’t happen first. The universe then freezes.
Alelle works in this case because Alelle has to physically move into the trash to trigger the effect before the universe freeze.
EDIT: I’m not sure I’m being clear at all as I don’t think the correct ruling is intuitive from a card-game standpoint, but it makes a lot of sense to me from a programming standpoint.
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Yes. If we don’t have an installed copy, Blacklist would shut down Street Peddler. As Lukas says, the cards are still hosted while the game is frozen. If the card only exists in Archives, the cards will be hosted on it while it’s in Archives, will therefore be in Archives themselves (see Awakening Centre), and therefore can’t get installed if Blacklist is active.
I appreciate that the effect floats free of the card. If the effect is instantiated before the trash is resolved, and the “tokens on Allelle Repression” part of the effect set at that point, why isn’t the “card in Archives” bit of the effect also set at that point (when Allelle Repression isn’t there yet)? That’s the question.
It would actually seem to work mainly if self-referential bits were assessed when the effect was instantiated, while other bits were assessed at resolution, however IT Department foils this!
It’s not instantiated before the trash is resolved. The trash is resolved AND instantiated at the same time.
@linuxmaier further explained my thoughts already. Not sure which Awakening Center ruling you’re referring to. The only one I can think of is that ice on Awaken Center are consider “in” the server not “protecting” the server, but that doesn’t seem to apply because the “in”/“protecting” distinction only deals with ice in the active states.
Exactly. I simply mean that hosted cards seem to count as being in the same place as the host (so if a card is in Archives and has hosted cards, they’d be in Archives too, not floating in some nowhere-limbo-land).
Man, this is some quantum physics shit.
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I don’t think that it can apply to this situation because we’re not talking about the ice in the active state, we’re talking about an effect as it’s being resolved. In the Awakening Center case, “in” and “protecting” are positional descriptions of a server.
This is not true: see agenda hosted on Glenn Station ruling.
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