Agenda Composition: Are 3/1s Any Good?

But that’s the problem isn’t it… whatever deck is running Sleepers needs to be better than what FA can already achieve. And if you’re packing a couple of Sleepers (and possibly some Fast Tracks), you have even less cards dedicated to the rest of your gameplan.

Ah but you’re forgetting our new friend Taurus :smile:
Also, Runners are way less inclined to play a Plascrete against HB, although seeing the Custom Biotics ID might raise some suspicions.

I’m not sure I’m that sold on Grail. I think we need to see more before we can make a call on that. It needs a ruling too about how the subroutines are gained.

Here’s one 3/1 I really like: Unorthodox Predictions. That thing is massively useful to score Nisei Mk.II with a lot less risk than you’d usually need. Sure, you need to have a taxing enough server, but the new Jinteki ICE sorta does that well enough (Komainu, Susanoo, Inazuma, etc). Also, comboes well with the nastiness of Jinteki ICE - just score it, say “Sentry” and watch no runs attempted for a full turn.

What I like best about Predictions is that the ideal way of scoring them (IAA) makes them indistringuishable from both a Fetal AI and a 3-pointer, so it introduces a lot of uncertainty into your playing/scoring pattern.

I’ll have to try them with Mushin No Shin eventually, that just begs for a 3x MNS + 3x Guard setup, saying “Sentry” and having your stuff super-safe.

p.s. about 3/1s being worse because of the limited number of FA tricks you can pull - 2x Archived + 2x Reclamation is essentially infinite recursion, and it works as backup economy, as well. Especially in Jinteki, where you can do a Archived Celebrity Gift turn that is functionally equivalent to an untrashable Melange.

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I’ve always been a Pet Project fan.

That doesn’t really make a lot of sense.
If you have the means to score Unorthodox Predictions then you might as well have just played your Nisei Mk II. If the Runner steals your UP then you’re still going to have to force through the Mk II somehow.

Jinteki is the faction that really can’t spare the deck space and, for me, UP isn’t good enough to warrant diluting the rest of the deck with more agendas.

You’re looking at it from a hindsight kind of perspective. In retrospect, you can tell whether you could have scored Nisei or not, but when you’re playing the agenda down, it’s very seldom all that obvious.

UP is a one-pointer that does a very valuable thing - by scoring it, you create a window. If you use a perceived scoring window to score UP, and it turns out to have been real, you didn’t “waste it” in terms of getting that Nisei scored. If the window wasn’t real and your 1-pointer got stolen, it’s very possible that the act of stealing your 1-pointer cost the runner enough that you now have a legitimate window for your Nisei.

Hollis explains the mechanics I’m after pretty well in this post of his: Deck - The Red Coats | Android: Netrunner - the advantage you get for using UP specifically for this is that there isn’t really a good choice for the runner - your Nisei tends to get scored either way (unless it’s stolen from HQ).

Oh, and Jinteki is one of the corps that leverages 1-pointers best, for a lot of reasons. Just try running through a Komainu three times in a row, only to always take at least one net damage on the other end, and see how you like it.

Edit re: agenda dilution. One of my favorite quotes from Martin Presley says: “if you treat your agendas as liabilities, that’s what they’ll become.” Also, Archer.

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Yeah that’s true - but in some cases for some Corps they are!
It’s only very recently that Corps could put together a full suite of agendas that actually fitted the gameplan and weren’t just making up numbers.

Very true, but as I said above: when Archer lands it’s usually game, a lot of the time it doesn’t matter what you’re sacrificing. I wouldn’t use him as the sole justification for running one-pointers but I agree he’s a factor worth considering.

I understand the premise and the effect you’re going for. When it works it’s all well and good, but my concern is that some of the time you will be tempted to pass up a legitimate scoring window because you don’t have the follow-up agenda you’re after. In my mind, if you decline to score it’s an error, but if you do score you’d rather it was a blank 3/2 (i.e. Brain Trust - unless you’re running these as well?)

Yeah, they have some very taxing ICE, but they’re very tight for deck space because they have to squeeze in all the stuff every Corp needs plus all the tricks and traps.

I’ve never really liked IAA as a strategy unless it’s mixed with traps. When an agenda gets stolen you haven’t only lost the agenda, you’ve lost the value of the clicks and the value of the advancements which is a big tempo drain. Those cards have to be traps some of the time to make 5/3s viable, and that’s why deck space is tight for Jinteki. This doesn’t apply quite so much to Replicating Perfection because they can often make the remote inaccessible for long enough to create big enough windows.

I suppose mixing 3/1s into your IAA strategy does reduce the average payoff for a run, but it still feels like an expensive way to bait the runner.

But admittdely I haven’t played much Jinteki and it’s something I need to try.

I have a decklist built specifically to leverage the effects I’m describing (and some additional synergies that stem from those choices), but I’ll wait until next week with posting it here - contemplating actually playing it at a regional this saturday. Some of the things I’d want to go in-depth on replying can be nicely illustrated on that, so I’ll hold off for now.

(also, @SneakySly - maybe split this whole discussion about the merits and problems of 1-pointers into a separate thread?)

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Cool, good luck man. Let us know how you get on!
I’m a bit upset that the UK Regional calendar was so packed. It was designed around the Regionals being qualifiers for an invitation-only Nationals which has been and gone already. So we have no more organised play to gear up for.

Good suggestion about a separate topic on one-pointers.

Part of nbn’s “identity” is credit taxing, which is exactly what this 3/1 does. You create a taxing server and throw this in there. If they dump a bunch of money to grab it you have a scoring window for something more valuable. If they don’t then you bring back your sansan/eve/etc. that they previously paid through the nose for and now have to again or suffer the consequences. If you can combine this successfully with market research now you’re really creating an agenda scoring distinction between yourself and the runner. It probably isn’t the type of agenda that you put three of in a deck but if that is true that just makes it more the better designed card in my opinion.

I’m sure there will be a place for it in a few nbn decks, especially as time goes on.

Agreed. 3/1 needs to be exceptional/just fit into that awkward “don’t have anymore 3/2 agendas” slot. Some of them are very good in that slot, but are rarely good independent of that context.

The issue is that the corporation doesn’t really have time or space to mess around. That’s why Jinteki advance traps don’t work that well. You can’t afford the time to waste on it (and therefore the deck space). If you are in a situation where you are trying to score, you’re are wasting your time with a 3/1. The marginal risk is moot, because the marginal cost eats into the real cost of better plays or having to play repeatedly. If you are trying to score, score well or don’t bother.

Runners on the other hand are all about messing around. They make many more runs than the Corporation attempts to score agendas, so the “advantage” of requiring multiple steals is moot, because they are already attempting to run as many times as possible.

Isn’t that all really quite obvious? I mean, better than the previous deck iteration and adding one card costs you having another card? I mean is HB FA so ungodly strong that no change, except a better version of card that’s in there, is viable?

I haven’t heard any real solid arguments against it imo. It’s a better 7th point that works independently of other cards and credits, which makes all your other credits and cards better because you can use them more freely for 1-6. For example, going down to 2 to Biotic Labor an agenda, means you will have to get two more specific cards (another Biotic Labor and an agenda) and five more credits. With Sleepers you just need 6 clicks. Six clicks for two cards and five credits sounds terrible, but they both end up being 2 turn plays and after which the net gains mean nothing because you win. This makes Sleepers the better alternative, because it frees your specific or discrete resources (cards and resources), because it only requires guaranteed recurring resources.

I disagree. Custom Biotics is a giant warning sign to your opponent saying “I am going to try to do something to you involving tags”.

They should be wary of tags, and you dont get an actual ability.

While this isn’t untrue, I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing. Maybe I’m taking too much to heart from elsewhere, but you always have a reasonable ability to work out what your opponent is planning from their ID. The goal isn’t so much to surprise them as it is to have a plan that’s going to work anyway. Not having an actual ability is much more of a factor than just “tags, no snare” is.

That said, I’m also assuming Grail Ice will be worth the neutral influence, if not then CB’s not looking half so appealing.

Because they have to, though. Runners want to make as many runs as they need and no more, usually, it’s just that that number can balloon (due to either having a successful-run-benefit with Desperado/Security Testing or just a need to keep checking things until it works). A taxing enough server can shut down a runner pretty damn well for a turn, much of the time, and if your servers are taxing enough then making the number of runs they need is a drain. It’s a drain they’ll eventually overcome, maybe, but if they need to spend more than 6 credits/run, then they have to spend a turn recovering from each.

In Peekay’s example, that’s the point of UP. They run it? You can score Nisei before they recover. They don’t? You score Nisei anyway. You walk away with more points than they do either way, and wouldn’t necessarily be able to score Nisei by itself. IAA doesn’t read “has a follow-up agenda for sure” either, so they might try to steal it rather than go for your hand.

They might go for the Legwork, but they might also go for the Indexing, and either way you probably get to score UP at least so it wasn’t a loss – and their decision to do either of those isn’t something you can easily control by your play short of shoring up the centrals more.

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Except for, you know, the one Custom Biotics deck that actually made it into the TWD archive :stuck_out_tongue:

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Yeah I’d say the deeper we get into Netrunner, the less this is true. And even when it is, being wary of tags isn’t necessarily going to be enough to save the runner.

Me: Will anyone believe me if I tell them that my best deck (currently 19-1) runs 11x 3/1 agendas and 3x 2/1 agendas plus a few 2-pointers?

Voice of Reason: No, they will point and laugh

Me: Should I tell them it runs 59 cards and plays a relatively fast game?

Voice of Reason: Of course not. You’re an idiot.

Me: But it’s true…*backs out of room slowly

Voice of Reason: That guy’s high

My current Jinteki PE is a beast with 3/1s as the main engine of the deck. That said, it’s a weird deck and does not make an argument for 3/1s being strong in comparison with 3/2s.

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Let me guess…

3x Fetals 1x Philotic 3x Clone Retirement 3x Profiteering 3x House of Knives 3x False Lead 2x Gila Hands? With Shocks, Snares, Shi.Kyus, and Susanno?

I don’t think you’re high :wink: I am surprised to read that it’s 19-1 though. I’ve seen this elsewhere but honestly thought it was a gimmick. I’d like to see your list @Heartthrob and see your strategy behind it.

Excellent guess. 2x Profit and 3x Gila. No Susanno. Only 14 ice in a 59 card deck…and most of the ice is small.

I have been way friggin’ surprised at how well it does. I’ll try to post it tonight. But seriously on paper it looks like crap…

It’s doing damage though, I score the win more than I flatline the win (probably…).

I would love to see that PE list as well because I tried that idea and simply couldn’t get it to work against anyone good.

Have I just missed it, or has no one mentioned one of the best–if not the best-- 3/1s in the game? Profiteering is a huge credit swing: net 12 credits! It’s almost like a triple hostile takeover :smiley:

It’s a lot of money, but 3 Bad Publicity is quite a steep price to pay. You hugely reduce the taxing value of your servers with that much BP - it pretty much neutralises a whole piece of ICE on every run. Not to mention that NAPD Contract is a very popular agenda and 3 BP makes it worthless - it’s now costing you 7 to score and only 1 for the runner to steal it.

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