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Almost everyone cares to complain about clan vengeance, eh?


#1

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#2

We are too busy venting about FFG dicking up world’s registration, R&R shortages, world champs deck misprints, and that license renewal thing.


#3

Oh believe you me, there’s plenty of bitching about CV in Seattle. A bad corp just can’t get a clean break.


#4

You know who hates CV? This guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM1y4G-Mn7M


#5

World Champs deck misprints? Do tell.


#6

CV is fine; Zer0 is the card that’s a mistake.

edit: and if we are complaining about Kampala Ascendent cards, then I would also mention Mti and Surveyor.


#7

The only thing I would complain right now is just the sudden death of the game.Nothing else.


#8

From the reddit:

  • MCAAP uses “agenda counters” instead of “power counters”
  • SMC requires 1 MU, not 2
  • VLC has no trash cost

I mean, this is pretty far down on the list of “things that are ruffling feathers,” but it’s annoying.


#9

Welcome to the german world of ANR :sunglasses:


#10

SMC and VLC are somewhat explainable “digital production” issues where a production designer goofs on the cut and paste… (Still, it shows there isn’t even a basic QA pass on World Champs decks, makes you wonder what else got explained away as “design intent” over the years).

But how you manage to change actual words on MCAAP seems to suggest someone rewrote the text from memory instead of pasting it from some other system or using the original card as a guide.

Fuck-ups like that are even more worrisome.


#11

I’m not a game designer, but it seems like FFG would have avoided a lot of headaches if they had chosen either

a. Negative effects are strictly negative – e.g. being tagged is always worse than not being tagged, taking damage is always worse than not taking damage.
b. Cards which reverse a negative effect (CV, SVA, etc) should only be triggered when the corp causes their trigger.

Otherwise, it’s extremely difficult to use negative effects to balance the power level of individual cards. I think that Zer0 is an interesting and cool card – having synergy with IHW and the heap breakers would make it “good” and almost certainly worth playing. Adding CV into the mix starts veering towards non-interactivity.

At any rate, I’m not personally too cheesed with CV, but that’s because I’ve been mainly playing rushy corps recently where I tend not to leave stuff in hand for very long and try to sew things up before CV gets really out of control.


#12

Yet I’ve Had Worse is fine when it stops self-damage?

Just devil’s advocate. I actually agree that Clan Vengeance makes way more sense if it only does something when the Corp deals damage. Though it would also be an almost-worthless card, then.

It’s an interesting paradigm, because the idea of self-damaging Anarch has been around since Stimhack. Gaining value from damage. I think the line is crossed when you hurt the Corp through self-damage.


#13

Indeed. More thematic but, effectively, banned. It might have some narrow utility as the anti-Argos and anti-BoN card. You could see it as the Anarch way of surviving a double punitive by trashing HQ after the first one or combining it with, say, Crash space to survive a boom then hit back.

I think it was meant to be a “you don’t come at the king” card which they couldn’t make work.

Personally I would be quite happy if it and Counter Surveillance joined Salvaged Vanadis Armory on the first NISEI MWL. I don’t think the game wouldn’t miss them.


#14

another way of making clan vengeance a more fun design to play against would having its trash cost have an additional more interactive element, like having to make a successful run on hq that turn or being a “the corp chooses discarding cards or x bad thing”


#15

…and PE, and PU…


#16

Off-topic, but after the initial sadness of FFG shitcanning support for Netrunner wore off I woke up one morning and said to myself “Holy shit… This means I don’t have to play against abusive PU decks and dumb PE cup-and-ball game decks ever again.”

The silver lining of all this is I get to focus on hobbies that generate fun more than 50% of the time I do them!

:joy:


#17

zer0 is a great card. CV is the mistake.


#18

I wrote a review for counter surveillance that agrees with this vision:
https://netrunnerdb.com/en/card/12023#review-2396
I hope FFG stuck to these fundamentals.


#19

I disagree - cards like DLR / Obelus / CV are interesting. I think it’s just a matter of not messing up when it comes to power level. The first time I saw Zer0 I thought “wow, that’s amazing,” and I didn’t even realize until yesterday that it also gains you a credit. But I would also say that CV means that persistent self-damaging cards (Stim Dealer is the only other one) merit extra caution.


#20

That’s a reasonable opinion. I feel otherwise because Zer0 without CV is still a super good card whereas CV without Zer0 is just a normal card. But I could agree with the idea that CV itself is a design mistake specifically because it’s busted with any good source of repeatable self-damage.