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Almost everyone cares to complain about clan vengeance, eh?


#41

I’m in agreement with you here. The biggest issue is that Zer0 allows you to play CV without investing into the older self-harm deck design which was notably more focused and weaker. I think Zer0 is an efficient card, but hardly one worth restricting/banning on its own. Anarch already has a ton of existing draw options and is still perfectly competitive without it.
The self harm deck is like D2D Making News. It’s a good meta call at times, but largely not relevant, consistent, or fast enough for most metas. It’s fine as a fun fringe strategy, but not a dominant one.

No sleight against you personally, but that’s a meaningful metric. Casual is full of a variety of decks and skill levels, and there are no stakes. How you play against a PE on Jnet is very different from how you’ll play against it when you’re in the 6th round of swiss trying to fight your way into a cut.


#42

If you are playing to win, it’s hard to do oess than 60% in the casual lobby, in my experience. You are often up againat first drafts of experimental decks, people just messing around and brand new players.


#43

I feel like CV is just a symptom of this problem. The fact that corps have very few ways to control the flow of agendas to HQ limits deck building and gameplay in a way that is a problem with or without CV.

I don’t want to only play Corp decks that jam every agenda they see into the remote. I’m getting bored with winning/losing games based on the top ~10 cards of my deck. Maybe it’s something like Jackson or maybe it’s something like MtG’s cantrips (Brainstorm, Ponder, etc). We have a few cards intended to fill that void but most of them just don’t do enough (e.g. Special Report can’t help you with cards already in the bin, Preemptive gets CV’d before you can use it).

It looks like the next big box actually has some attempts at this so I guess I’ll wait and see.

Side note, I think CV is good but mostly zer0 Val is just bonkers. Cut the CVs and give it a try — honestly it feels just as good without.


#44

I’ve kind of found this refreshing to be honest, especially post-Rashida where corp tempo is less of an issue. Pre-Rashida you could play rush but lose from not drawing enough agendas. To each their own, but I feel like Netrunner was not designed around corps hiding agendas forever.

J How fixed a problem but in doing so enabled a lot of uninteresting corp durdling. People also seem to forget how much he enabled asset spam, a historically disliked archetype. Damon always said Jackson is a crutch and I think he was proven right in retrospect; we’re making due without. I find it hard to see Jackson as not OP. It’s a wild amount of work in one card (draw, real-time shuffle, real-time recursion, flood protection, combo enabler). We never needed all those in one card. People complained about Shutdown CI but never about Jackson. Power cards make games fun but obtaining Howard at costs more along the lines of Whampoa (neutral 2 influence, higher rez or lower trash) feels more appropriate to me.


#45

Hi everyone,
I wavered about posting because it feels so “internet-y”…actually meant to post a few days ago, then decided not to…then this morning figured, “Eh, I think I can contribute to this conversation?”

Prior to US Nationals, I Facebook messaged Boggs regarding CV-Zero (maybe other folks did as well), and he was cool enough to write back to me. He said that he’s keeping on eye on the combo and that if there was another MWL, he wouldn’t be surprised if one of those cards made it onto the list. Though he also said he couldn’t make any promises (of course).

Boggs is good people. Anyway, based on a brief three sentence facebook message, I wouldn’t be surprised if there was one more MWL before the game wraps up and I wouldn’t be surprised if CV-Zer0 was addressed on it.

Of course, that still filters back down to ANR Organized Play and who knows if Boggs and those folks are going to operate on the same page.


#46

The thing is this PE doesn’t passivly asks you to make mistakes or not. It plans winning. That’s a really different story. This means part of your wr is based part on your skill rather than totally on you wishing errors from the other side.

You have to draw a lot to find that 5-card scoring combo (breaker suite + zero / CV). Drawing vs PE is not only expected, but usually not totally under your full control. There, if you also help the corp to dry the runner deck, it’ll be even quicker to lock the runner.

Won: 86 (68%) - Lost: 41

Even Fairer Fairer PE
Jinteki: Personal Evolution
49 cards
Influence: 15/15 ●​●​●​●​●​●​●​●​●​●​●​●​●​●​●​
Agenda points: 20
Tournament legal
:heavy_check_mark:Basic deckbuilding rules
:heavy_check_mark:NAPD MWL 2.1
:heavy_check_mark:Only released cards
✘Cache Refresh compliant
✘1.1.1.1 format compliant
✘Modded format compliant
Agenda (10)
2 Braintrust
2 Chronos Project
3 Medical Breakthrough
2 Obokata Protocol :unicorn:
1 Philotic Entanglement
Asset (5)
2 Breached Dome
3 Snare!
ICE (13)
2 Cortex Lock
3 DNA Tracker
1 Data Loop ●​●​
1 IP Block ●​
3 Kakugo
1 Komainu
1 Mirāju
1 Yagura
Operation (18)
3 Biotic Labor ●​●​●​●​●​●​●​●​●​●​●​●​
2 Celebrity Gift
1 Fast Track
3 Hedge Fund
3 IPO
3 Preemptive Action
3 Shipment from Tennin
Upgrade (3)
1 Cyberdex Virus Suite
2 Prisec

Aka about 40+ damage source, or about 20 a game. Prisec on Archives there = gg.


#47

Fair enough, it is different and it’s still fun. Like you mentioned, I think there’s a balance point between Jackson and where we are now. Whampoa is along the lines of what I’m thinking of but that seemed to mostly get used by prison decks to actually hide agendas forever (or at least, as long as they could).

Truth be told, I just want to play glacier and durdle a bit.


#48

The 3rd place (and could have had a shot at top 2 if it was not for an unfortunate mistake) of the Ohio Regional was a NEXT Design Glacier with Jinja and Surveyor. It’s definitely possible to play glacier and that meta was full of Val Zer0 Vengeance.


#49

Oh I know you can play Glacier, I should have emphasized “and durdle a bit”. More foodcoats, less jimmy johns, ya know?


#50

Just because it’s possible to win a lot when playing qgqinst it does not mean that it is good for the game.

A card that says “roll a die, on a 6 you win the game, otherwise you lose the game.” is not necessarily imbalanced. I’d argue that such a card should be ban though too.

If people frequently just want to quit the match when they see the deck you are playing or feel like the match just became random, oppressively annoying or broken, who really cares who technically wins? Ya know?

Make the game fun and fair.

Also, would anyone really be upset if it got banned? Are their CV fanboys with clan tattoos who will feel like the game is being ruined if they can’t randomly be repeatedly forced to discard their whole headquarter by a runner who might not have even made a single run yet?


#51

Point taken, but…I kind of love that card. Give it a trash cost of 1, and baby, you’ve got a stew going.


#52

How about 4?

Schlaghund


#53

That is insane. Also, it’s the cyberpunk version of the demagorgan from Stranger Things.


#54

I did mention that it has Jinja and Surveyor, that seems pretty high in durdle to me, since you want servers with 4+ ice.


#55

Being honest, having Clan Vengeance on the meta makes me not want to attend the last few tournaments. It simply makes playing Corp, specially slower Corps much less fun. You often lose because the guy at the other side got CV+Zero early on and your hand gets trashed on turn 5. No counterplay at all, it’s just dumb.


#56

Is Netrunner not a hobby that is fun more than 50% of the time? That shocks me a little.

I mean, I totally agree with your first paragraph – in casual play, it is really easy to not play against decks you don’t like. And to not play decks you don’t like. That’s what I’ve been doing ever since I started playing Netrunner (and I think it is a big part of why I still loved the game even in the darkest days before Revised Core/ rotation).
I intend to continue in exactly this way, and I most certainly do intend to continue playing!


#57

So since you mentioned counterplay I thought I’d bring up what I’ve been trying (to mixed results) to see if it even makes sense:

Once zer0 + CV hit the table, I try to install/play my entire hand if at all possible with the goal of building some kind of remote to slam topdecked agendas in. From then on I try to avoid having more than 1-2 cards in hand. If I draw an agenda it gets jammed if they don’t CV it right away. Likewise with Econ/Assets, etc.

Does that make sense at all? It seems to sort of work in that they get less cards from CV but it hinges on the remote being at least halfway decent.


#58

It would be fair if they had to trash exactly the number of cards per power counter, so that you could possibly void the use of it. Like if you had five counters on clan vengeance, the Corp could do damage some how and make the number did, then seven, and the runner could only trash your hand if you have at least that many cards, so that they can’t use zero without going over the number. But that’s not even a good strategy for non damage decks. Both of those cards are going to be restricted, if there’s any justice in the world, but then there will be two less cards in the netrunner pool to use.

However, if the mwl and restricted/ban list dissolves and all the cards are legal again, clan vengeance will be a great way to deal with ig


#59

How does Clan Vengeance help against a hypothetical, all-cards-legal IG? For one, firing the CV will trigger any Hostile Infrastructures they have set up. Additionally, you’re increasing their trash costs and potentially loading Archives with more Breached Domes and giving them an opportunity to shuffle back agendas with Museum of History.

I haven’t played IG a lot recently, but I have messed around with Museum of History in Gagarin and NEH and I’ve found that those decks normally have favorable match-ups against CV simply because of the extra recursion from Museum.


#60

IG almost never plays Museum of History anymore. It needs the Restricted slot for either Bio-Ethics or Obakata, usually Bio-Ethics.

The finisher play is usually “rez Ronin, Dedication Ceremony on Ronin”, and CV could pop to stop the Dedication. You’ll get tons of free CV counters with the constant sources of single net damage.