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Almost everyone cares to complain about clan vengeance, eh?


#61

I know current MWL IG couldn’t run Museum, I was referencing this:


#62

It makes sense, but it doesn’t fully work. There are just too many issues:

  1. Scoring fast often relies on HQ cards like Hard-Hitting News or Hunter Seeker. These will be dumped by CV at first opportunity.
  2. Even if you score very fast, you are going to need 6-7 turns to do it. This is slow enough to have your HQ dumped and lose.
  3. Each agenda you can’t score is an agenda for the Runner. So if you draw 6 agendas, he’s going to get 2-3 of them with CV no matter what. If they steal one, CV can easily give them two more. That’s game right there, in two runs.
  4. Runners can easily tech against fast-decks when all slow decks are unplayable.

But the problem is that, well, it boils down to “You can win as long as HQ is irrelevant”. And that’s not interesting, nor balanced nor fun.

Just ban that crap before it ruins Worlds.


#63

I should have given more context in my initial post: I’ve been playing mostly glacier decks recently so all I have in my deck is installables, econ ops, and 3 Scarcity (ofc).

For decks that rely on holding cards in HQ, this would not work at all.


#64

I, too, lose when there are six agendas in the top 10-15 cards. I don’t see how this is CV’s fault. CV only wins you games by itself… Okay, never by itself since it doesn’t do anything by itself (though that’s never stopped people complaining about cards…) only wins when the Corp is holding multiple agendas in their hand. That only happens if the Corp is money-poor, or has a compromised remote. To me, that looks like CV is just accelerating the already-decided game. Alternately, it can prevent combo kills, which, uh, yes. Do that.


#65

You saw someone netting himself five times with CV on table and decided to keep your hand.

You deserved to lose imo.

CV < Legwork. If you could not install your agenda, even naked, how it should be the runner’s, who is occupied with netting himself and drawing ?


#66

Haha, are you seriously suggesting to install agendas naked as counterplay?

It happens regardless, because, like I said:

  1. It goes online very fast, often in less than 7 turns.
  2. It makes slower decks unplayable
  3. It’s trivial to tech against fast decks as Runner when slow decks aren’t viable
  4. Even if you keep scoring you’ll often have enough agendas in HQ to lose the game.

I’m sorry you hate variety. And slow decks. And anything that says “Operation” on it.


#67

There seems to such an outcry to restrict or ban this card but i am surprised there isn’t as much of an outcry to ban or restrict Mti.

I realize that Mti is beatable and understand the counterplays you can make but i find it so unfun an usually, unsatisfyingly high-variance. The asset spam variations in particular are just unfun to run against and kind of too easy to play with as corp.

As far as different players having different experiences, and not to get a little off topic, but am I the only one who gets a little bummed and tempted to gg turn 1 when I sit down and see an mti deck?


#68

I’m just going to pick at this one point… Because it appears to be nonsensical.
Because Zer0 is only usable once a turn. So, at fastest, it takes 5 turns to get it online if you install both in the first turn and immediately use it.
So you’re postulating that the Runner has found two different 3x cards, and installed them, in the first three turns of the game, and asking me to believe that this is a normal series of events.
You’re aware that Ayla was touted as the possible resurgence of Magnum Opus decks because before her, it was too hard for shaper to find one of a 3x program.

I’m sure I didn’t read that right, because I swear you just argued that a card that prevents combo kills out of nowhere should be considered OP, which would mean you think Plascrete and Sports Hopper are OP.


#69

Not really. Both for the reasons CrushU mentioned and the reality that slamming CV + zer0 turn 1 and mashing it is often not very good. As someone who plays a lot of CV/0 Val, I’d much rather open with Dirty Laundry -> Mining Accident in a lot of matchups (especially slow ones) and would probably mulligan a hand with CV + 0 unless it had other econ/draw to get things rolling.

And yet in the largest tournament since CV/Zer0 have come out (US nats), we see 8/16 decks in the top cut are glacier (not counting the Mti list that isn’t reported or the Gagarin one since those are probably asset based). 50% of the cut is pretty far from “unplayable”, no?

Looking at one of the glacier lists from Nationals, the agenda suite was 3 Nisei, 3 GFI, 1 Philotic, 1 TFP. The runner needs to steal half the agendas in your deck to win, or 2 agendas + win a psi game. Barring extreme cases like mulling into 4 agendas, you should almost never have enough agendas to lose the game in HQ, especially if you are scoring at all. Having played quite a few games as Jinteki glacier vs. CV, I have yet to lose in Archives in the manner you described. More often you lose in the remote because the threat of CV forces you to score before you’re ready, but that’s not the same as the situation you described (and can be said of lots of cards like Legwork, etc).

Ok can we be real for a sec? CV/Zer0 does disrupt combo decks that depend on operations and if that is your complaint then we can talk about that but just making broad overreaching statements about the card isn’t really leading to much useful discussion.


#70

I think the fundamental contention that the Zer0/CV combo is way too good/easy a way to disrupt the corp and pretty unfun play experience is true. It’s maybe overstatement that it crushes every corp or even particular corps like Mti & glacier. Corps are winning games at a decent rate (KTM has corp winrate at 52% for the Kampala Ascendent meta). But there’s a lot that feels unplayable at the moment due to this one combo and it certainly increases variance by punishing bad corp starts even further.


#71

Having the cards you were intending to play getting meaninglessly pinged out of your hand by an opponent who does absolutely nothing is the reason why I came to despise fhe design of Jinteki and I breathed a secret sigh of relief when the announcemenf hit. Fuck dumb net damage decks.

The problem isn’t Clan Vengeance, it’s the damage mechanic in Netrunner in general. Netrunner was at its best when it was a game of economy. Net damage is fucking stupid.


#72

Agreed. I hate feeling pushed to play CV/0 runner side. It feels gross even when I’m winning which is not exactly a hallmark of good design.


#73

Wow. Hard pass here. The first corp I loved was PE. Install your cards if they’re so precious or get over it. The overlap of hit points/cards in hand is one of the most brilliant (and underrated) mechanics of Netrunner that sets it apart from every other card game. It’s easy to see the innovation in asymmetry & hidden information but how damage is implemented another part of what makes the game amazing.


#74

People complain about a lot of random stuff but disliking net-damage sure is a new one.


#75

Zer0 / CV is really a non-issue, even if your deck can’t counter it.

This reminds me Syphon/Legwork Spam but it can’t go T1, and you have LOOOOOOOOOTS of time to prepare for it.

Face it, Leela hit harder.

If you see this and lose 5 turns after, you deserve it. Ice Archives, try scoring by any means necessary and play any trick you have in your corp piloting alphabet. They should do the job.

Now, you all made me think about Zer0 & Chopbot in Apex, and this can’t go from my head. 6 monthes since I did not build something weird for the game, gj, Stimhack, gj.


#76

Not the only one, I feel the same, recently when on jinteki I play mostly corp so that I can avoid this matchup.


#77

Oh you, what a joker.


#78

Your point being… ?


#79

Going totally on a different approach here.

The heap breaker suite has dominated the Anarch player breaker choice since they came out. Also, Paperclip is EVERYWHERE (everywhere going around 90 these days :stuck_out_tongue: ).

Also, the heap breakers have more or less reduced to zero the excitment and awe of ICE that actually trash programs. Only Skorpios can really do something about them and the only answer to this was “Let’s use all 9 heap breakers”!

Enter Zer0…

…yeah…

…right…

…you got to be kidding me…

… Ok, I know that Sifr is zero in Arabic but i did not know that every card named zero in ANR has to be OP…

So, what about a new MWL with the heap breakers going restricted? All of them so you will end up using just one of them in anarch. Do you think this will be too drastic?

P.S. I realy like the idea behind Zer0. If something has to be done to nerf it in a way, why not hit two birds with one stone and nerf the heap breakers also?


#80

Not only is it not a non-issue, it’s a more serious issue if your deck is one that gets hit hardest by it.