Zer0 / CV is a perfect counter to CI hiding behind a huge server until they combo out. It puts you on a clock to get your stuff either installed or hidden into archives or back into R&D.
I should point out as far as zero-themed cards go that while Nfr was really strong in the Post-Flashpoint-Card-Number-23/Pre-Flashpoint-Card-Number-24 meta, I think more recently printed cards have made it a pretty fair card.
Fair enough, but I think there is more counters to this than to sudden legworks.
You have 5 turns to figure which netrunner trick you show from your bag, including discarding to 2 cards, hard trying to score agendas that would cost runs & money to the runner, play sacrifice games, stop drawing, or whatever ice archives + clic money you want to use.
In front of you, you have a runner that discards random cards for 5 turns.
If you don’t know how to play sacrifice games, I have these in my collection of tricks. Give me any rationnaly built corp deck I can show this.
In Jinteki PE, I can try to hardscore a naked Obokata, expecting a 90% giveway, if that provides me 2 pts next and a sufficient slowdown to the runner, or an occasion of kill. Because the calculation there is : runner lost a run, 5 draws + 1 after that, to score 1pt. And I’ve done it multiple times.
Netrunner skills involve knowing to counterattacking and sacrificing too, even when corping. You can use weirdness and loveaffair™ in your piloting, you know. This pays a lot.
What is 5 turns : 10% of your deck, aka 2pts. Score this. If you can’t then you expect to win a game @turn 25. Winning by turn #25 is slower than a race between my former grandmas.
If you can’t score this, then you expect to passivly win games. I’m sorry but there is no plan #2 in your deck : I don’t call these rationnaly built corp decks. Plan #2 and active ways to win games is probably one of the golden rules when building decks, what do you expect from these one trick poney builds, then ?
That feels a bit extreme to me. It would be nice if there were a new “limited category” that allowed you to mix and match cards on it up to a single playset. So, for example, the heap breakers could be a combined three per deck (one of each or two Clippy and 1 Mk Ultra, etc.)
I’ll just throw this out there to help. There are some decks that can “play around it,” by playing off the top of the deck and IAA’ing whatever they can. You can still lose doing this. Azmari and Palana glacier have the easiest time playing off the top. If you’re on those IDs, you can “get lucky” that they don’t set-up by turn 3 and get enough ice on your servers. Sometimes this happens. I faced a few CV anarchs at nats, and I managed to beat them (I lost to a reg val and a Hook Geist). So, this is not by far the most powerful strategy in the game. Other corps that rely on their cards in HQ, like CTM, most Weyland decks (not so much Skorp), MTI, even PE that you keep bringing up, these cards are hurt by CV the most.
What is shitty about the CV + Zero combo is that it’s very much like Sifr was back in the day, in that it targets a basic aspect of the game (cards in HQ) with no interplay. Your operations you were holding do nothing. Any agendas you had are also going in the trash. If your counter-argument is “Play PE and naked IAA Obokatas” I seriously doubt you will get far in any major tournament.
I don’t think this whole “this is how netrunner works” talk is helping your argument. I’ve been around the block. I know how the game works. There’s nothing passive about building servers and scoring agendas.
So a corp that doesn’t have a “plan b” isn’t rationally built? Those “Plan B” decks are the ones that get hit most by CV.
Ok, I am clearly not the one saying it (re-read the last 20 answers in this thread), but quit hyperboles please.
I know % odds to get a 2x 3 card combo out of a 40 card deck with 5+19 compression draws, and it’s clearly not turn 3. In a 40 card deck, you get those 50% of the time by card #13 if my memory serves, and #17 in a 45, this including targeted mulligan.
This is 8 clic of draw in a 40 deck + I-don’t-really-care-how-much-you-clicked-to-pay-for-that
Card #13, great. Now, you have to find your breakers. Odds to get 5x 3 cards combos are 50% on cards #whatever-this-is-too-slow-allready-lol-you-put-3x-breaker-suite.
So, add on top of your click, money that you randomly discards to find your breakers that you randomly discards. It will be hard to slap this in 3 turns.
Then, add 5 turns (unless you play conspi)
If you have quite “rationaly built” your ice suite, you expected the conspiration suite to show up in some good % of matches and designed your gates & sentries against it. What do you fear there. Any faction have good ice to put in front of conspi. Fairchilds. DNA. Archer. Cheap NBN crap.
Allright, you get that card #13 or 17, half of the time, then you’re almost as strong as an Apex showing a chopbot for 5 turns, then can say “look, mom, I accesses 5 cards that the corp knows”. Is this so great ?
GJ, you need 21 mean random accesses to win. Do this 3 more times, or 4 if the corp timed it rigth.
AKA 15-20-25 nets, minus your recursion, 3 of your breakers and combo, AKA : one trick poor poney deck.
Why then you want to ban that crap. It’s not stable enough to go up to cuts.
Yes, I say I can just manage around.
I don’t play horizonPE, we’re not in 2013 anymore ? I play a 3D PE (kill-work-FA), I posted the list allready. I don’t have only “a” plan B, I have a plan C and even a D one that is not very glorious (choke).
What special flaw on centrals most PE have ? Not playing snares, prisecs and breacheds, then filling their decks with transparent-to-R&D-digs assets like the huge r&d holes NGO are “because, like a dummy, everyone says the card is good so I blindly put it and don’t care what side effect it has”, for exemple.
I said a rationnaly built deck.
CTM losing to that is really the least of my concerns. People should stop optimising their decks like this, aka 100% focus to remotes, and also I’m quite sure I can defend with a CTM against that, CTM being among the best corps to play with a 0 size HQ.
Corp people play too much conservative, turtling all the way and never bluff and take any risk. Taking risks pays, because you as a shady corp will always have the benefit of the doubt.
If someone put a x turn clock on my head, I’m not playing the victim with waiting these x turns, lose as expected then “whine” on stimhack that this is not fair. You and I lived 5 years with Syphon.
If you’re a victim waiting for runner’s clocks, we’ll play together in the same leagues in major tournaments
(and this is fine because the last and only time I was serious in a tournament, I missed the cuts by 1 place)
This makes me laugh because there is nothing else than “let’s build stuff and wait for the runner” & “oh, he got stimhack, damn”.
You’re 100% passive there. There, you build things based on your calculation + what you expect from the runner, and hope he doesn’t stimhack you.
This is gving away all the choices to the runner, exept that last “I installed something in my 10c cost-through remote and I have 5 pts, would you get in ?” that the runner will always interpret as “let’s go yolo on R&D and maaaaybe on HQ or archives”.
You’re even passive there. I’m sorry but yeah, setting timers even as a corp is passive.
What you & others don’t like with this card might be the runner setting timers instead of you only, and, I’m sorry, but have a little less practice and views of work concepts & loveaffair™.
Yup. I’m not the only one saying that decks needs backup plans.
If your deck is like a train on track, what special strength a pilot can bring to it : 0. Your pilot is the guy in the train.
What special adaptation to the other front guy doing its stuff can the corp pilot do : 0. If the runner put a tree on the track, bye bye. You can brake, sure, then go nowhere.
You win tournament by pilot skill & luck, then by deck. You need space as a pilot. If you have a monolithic deck that the other guy allready know how you will play it before the game, your losing odds rises, especially as a corp.
Monolithic plans is the exact reason that these decks don’t go far. They impress and win once, then people adapt, put trees on your tracks and you die.
I’m with you except for running NGO in PE. That card really is as good as everyone claims it to be. I run two in my kill deck and don’t have any issues with R&D. Of course, it’s plenty spiky otherwise.
@Cynchwyrm : it’s a choice you make.
The 4 main things I gain :
- R&D integrity (here, any hole you make by digging should cost at least one net, but for 3 cards. So the guy comes in and get net or see an ice/op, and I’m fine with it if this gives him work).
- Knowing the runner can’t trash my econ with ease from R&D or HQ
- reliable econ takes less slots.
- One less card that clog my hand by taking a full turn to play.
Currently, I don’t have enough ice to play real glacier anyway, so NGO bluff gain is smaller than with your usual 15-19 ice deck.
I also play PE differently than anyone I know, so your mileage will certainly vary.
Clan vengeance is a good card that requires you to warp your deck around it (unless if you are up for a slow build-up of counters via Zer0). It is just the latest flavor of HQ disruption and certainly the best one we have seen thus far.
I don’t think it is a real problem since you see this coming from miles. The right move is to start installing and playing out your hand and getting those agendas scored to mitigate the CV hit.
Yes, you can have a lot of agendas in your draw, and just remember that this is just as bad as when they legwork HQ or do a deep data mining on R&D and find multiple agendas. That’s just the variance in this game. It is also possible that your deck is fueled by combining operations, and it’s tough luck, but this is how the runner disrupts that type of plan. Perhaps you should have built a deck that is more resilient against HQ disruption.
I don’t think clan vengeance is a problem, but I do think that it is a problem when you don’t do this once or twice, but throughout the entire game. We have so much draw in the game that it is easy to loop your deck with Levy AR lab access and dig back to your HQ/R&D disruption in very few clicks. I would prefer that we addressed this before looking at the current disruption in the meta. Being able to CV throughout the game feels a lot like the infinite account siphon spam.
That said, CV isn’t entirely without blame. It is weak that much of this story takes place without having the runner do a single run. That sounds like notrunner to me. I don’t like cards that foster a sit-back game for the runner, since the more interesting parts of netrunner take place in the runs.
In summary, I do not think CV/Zer0 should be banned or even restricted. I have far less beef with that than with Levy AR lab access and conspiracy breaker recursion.
I think Sifr and Faust are good analogies for Clan Vengeance. The Corp does have counters but the two cards in conjunction with their enablers (instant speed parasite, wyldcakes) warped the game too much. Even now their enablers are gone, the game feels better without them. Clan’s enabler is Zer0. I suspect that if Clan was banned, no one would miss it. You could also argue that Clan Zer0 is worse for the game than Sifr and Faust because at least those two cards incentivised the runner to run rather than sit at home pressing a big, red button all day.
Zer0 is definitely a candidate for restriction; it’s a lot less appealing if you don’t have access to Levy. Clan though should just go.
I disagree. I think we keep on killing these cards because we don’t want to part with our recursion tools. If there was more permanence in losing cards using zer0 or titanium ribs, this wouldn’t be as big a concern.
And I don’t agree that CV is worse than the instant parasite. At least CV leaves the corp with their money and overall investment of clicks.
I know what I’m about to write is a fallacy (specifically, the Either-Or Fallacy), however I think it can be part of the discussion.
When combos come to the forefront that are extremely powerful, it seems like the game does a few things.
1)It becomes part of “The Puzzle that is Netrunner.”
2)It becomes “Something I didn’t Sign-Up For” (i.e., That’s not real Netrunner [henceforth: TNRN])
When things fall into the first category, it seems like folks get excited about it–thinking of how to make that “puzzle” as strong as possible.
When things fall into the second category, we often enter a philosophical place where we discuss how to play around the the combo…silver bullets, different strategies, etc. And in that sense, there’s something interesting and exciting about dealing with the new puzzle.
Unless the puzzle pulls the game so hard in one direction that folks feel like their outs to win become so minimal that they might as well not play.
Which leads to the question of: Is CV/Zer0 part of the first category or the second? A fun puzzle to solve or an eye-rolling experience?
IMO, even it if is in category 1, the lack of interaction makes me feel like TNRN. Especially if I don’t have a card that can insta-save cards in Archives after CV gets popped like You Know Who.
As for saying “getting hit by Clan Vengence is like getting hitvwith Legwork” an important point to make it that legwork actually requires a successful hq run and can’t happen on the corps turn.
If cv were like Legwork, it would be called Wanton Destruction. Which is a balanced card bo one has a problem with.
That said, i think most of the arguments on both sides have veered into the absurd at this point.
I feel the CV/Zer0 is just part of the puzzle. It makes the anarch player do what they always were supposed to: Care about archives. It just happens that people react poorly against discarding cards, especially so when all this needs is time for the runner to get CV loaded up with counters. Essentially, it is knowing that you will get hit pretty hard by this ability and that you are on a clock to mitigate it. I wouldn’t mind a way to get the runner tagged so that the CV will be blown up. Currently I need to rely on either agendas to do this, or a corporate town to directly trash the CV.
As for the legwork comment: I only intend to bring that up with regards to discarding multiple agendas due to CV. You really should not be stockpiling agendas in HQ. One could argue that the anarch player also needs to run archives, but probably only once after they fired a couple of CVs. It’s either that or Hades fragment.
Running archives hardly happens on the corps turn.
(and please, just don’t say “but hades shard”. this is a 3 card combo there.)
3x legwork alone gives you 9 randoms accesses. Add 3x maker’s eyes and you got 18 random accesses.
3x CV / 3x Zer0 yields 15 accesses, cost lots of net, aren’t instant, etc.
I think your analysis is really undervaluing the fact that beyond just getting defacto accesses, Clan Vengeance is also trashing those cards for free. At that point you would almost have to compare CV + Zer0 to something like By Any Means + Makers Eye, which is also a combo of cards with a cost in meat damage. Just accessing the cards is going to be worse than trashing them at instant speed in the vast majority of cases.
If you Legwork and hit Hard-Hitting News, it doesn’t stop them from landing the tags the following turn, where CV can just turn off a number of strategies by simply knocking the pieces out of hand. If Legwork into a hand full of Snare and Breached Dome hurts, but CV largely doesn’t care. About the only time where “real” multi-access cards are better are situations where the corp has recursion available like Archived Memories or Preemptive Action to stop you from scoring the agendas you dumped out of HQ, but CV tends to knock those out of hand as well, meaning the Corp pretty much needs to pull them off the top of R&D.
I’m not going to feed this discussion anymore besides this one small thing: anyone who thinks that glacier is a passive strategy is nuts. Learning to read your opponent’s weaknesses and tempo, pushing agendas when appropriate, and placing ice effectively is core netrunner. It also happens to be a pretty decent way to beat CV, so any argument that derides glacier with notions that it “needs a plan b” while making the point that “CV is okay, but you shouldn’t play glacier because it’s too narrow” is a joker.
It’s a conversation too stupid for text, I have lots to say, but only so much air I can hold in my lungs before I pass out from the absurdity of it all.
There’s only so much counter play to CV+0 that a Corp can reasonably accomplish, and if you get a bad hand, the game is pretty much over.
Oh hey, just score out! OH IS THAT HOW YOU PLAY NETRUNNER? BY SCORING YOUR AGENDAS AND NOT JUST ENJOYING THE ARTWORK IN YOUR HAND AS THE RUNNER ANNIHILATES THEM WITH MINIMUM EFFORT?
It’s like people forget CV+0 aren’t the only cards being played, there’s also the money cards and heap breakers that prevent scoring windows.
To all the people saying trash CV with tags or corporate town, read up on the timing structure. If your friends are letting you trash their CVS, make sure they aren’t drooling on the table.
The problem with CV + Zero is you can get the corp to discard their hand while gaining tempo. To build up the 5 counters, you get 10 cards and 5 credits. With your remaining clicks, you play your econ cards and anything else you think will win you the game (possibly even another CV).
To legwork HQ successfully, you still need (at least) a two card combo – Legwork and any necessary breakers. Getting to this state where you can Legwork costs you tempo because you have to install and use your breakers. The former you do not need to install anything else.
After you have performed your multiaccess, the former you would usually get a bit of breathing room not having to worry about the corp scoring or retaliating. After a Legwork, you are susceptible to a Punative Counterstrike or a Hard-Hitting New because you have invested so much to get to that point.
This is certainly a very simplistic overview of both sides of the situation. The corp can play around this by forcing the runner to react to what they are doing and good players will exploit this. But most players are not good players and just see either another loss they could not have done anything about or a game that just is not interesting to play.