Because We Built It post O&C: Viable or...?

[licoricemaniac]

The new identities O&C brought to the table have taken all the spotlight lately. Understandable. But what about old and forgotten identities that needed a little bit of love? Did O&C bring BWBI back to life as seemed to promise, or should we leave this ID as our favorite proxy holder? What do this community think?

To get the discussion started here is my current iteration which is pretty conventional I think. The purpose of this post is not to discuss this particular deck, but to explore the potential of Weyland's misunderstood child.

Weyland Consortium: Because We Built It (A Study in Static)

Agenda (10)
3x Project Atlas (What Lies Ahead)
2x Government Contracts (A Study in Static)
1x NAPD Contract (Double Time)
1x Eden Fragment (The Spaces Between)
3x Firmware Updates (Order and Chaos)

Asset (7)
2x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) ••
2x Daily Business Show (All That Remains) ••
3x Space Camp (Order and Chaos)

Upgrade (2)
2x Crisium Grid (First Contact)

Operation (13)
3x Beanstalk Royalties (Core Set)
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
3x Trick of Light (Trace Amount) ••••• ••••
3x Commercialization (Cyber Exodus)
1x Reclamation Order (Double Time) ••

Barrier (8)
3x Ice Wall (Core Set)
2x Asteroid Belt (Order and Chaos)
3x Fire Wall (Order and Chaos)

Code Gate (4)
2x Quandary (Double Time)
2x Wormhole (Order and Chaos)

Sentry (5)
3x Caduceus (What Lies Ahead)
2x Nebula (Order and Chaos)

15 influence spent (maximum 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Order and Chaos

My experience so far: I brought an untested version (-2 crisium +2 builder) to a store champ where it performed poorly (1-3). I was expecting the deck to be strong against criminal and anarch, but weak against shaper with deep RnD access and efficient breakers. Unfortunately all four matches were vs. shaper (the meta WAS mostly anarch and crim) One loss was due to a major misplay on my end.

[Ahein]

Problem with BWB is that the big cost for advancing isn't the credit but the click you will lose. New Weyland ICE are worth to advance but I don't think BWB will be ever viable. You have 9 transaction operations so BBW would be very equal chioce or better in that deck. It is also debated if even BBW is anymore playable with Blue Sun and Titan.

Main problem with that deck is the slowness. ICE package is not very ideal for rushing and lack of Scorch threat makes more risky plays for runner profitable. Your servers will turn taxing in the end but the Weyland problem exists where almost all agendas need to go through remote and all advanced cards are agenda. You need at least Ash or other stuff to tax the runner more. Runner doesn't need to play fast against Weyland if they don't start advancing agendas (Supermodernism style Weyland forces the runner to react). Runners against that deck will just play slower and rig&money up which deck needs some ways to prevent. Also I feel Trick of Light works so much better with Titan.

[kenobob]

Played a game today with Nordrunner, and he was able to out-glacier my SMC Whizzard. Had a 16 advanced Ice Wall, and an Orion, Nebula, and the barrier space ice rezzed for free. He used BWBI's ability about every turn, but Space Camp also did some work. Late game I had to run archives with 3 Space Camps in it repeatedly to get sucker tokens.

My Whizzard deck only had 1 D4v1d in it, but I have 3 Clones and 2 Deja Vu. Still it taxed my D4v1d recursion out, and I added another immediately after the matchup.

The Space Ice build is definitely as taxing as HB glacier once it's set up, and advancing the Ice is kind of comparable to letting an Eve tick down in HB Glacier. We mused if BABW would be just as good, but I imagine it wouldn't have many advantages.

[licoricemaniac]

Problem with BWB is that the big cost for advancing isn't the credit but the click you will lose. New Weyland ICE are worth to advance but I don't think BWB will be ever viable. You have 9 transaction operations so BBW would be very equal chioce or better in that deck. It is also debated if even BBW is anymore playable with Blue Sun and Titan.

Main problem with that deck is the slowness. ICE package is not very ideal for rushing and lack of Scorch threat makes more risky plays for runner profitable. Your servers will turn taxing in the end but the Weyland problem exists where almost all agendas need to go through remote and all advanced cards are agenda. You need at least Ash or other stuff to tax the runner more. Runner doesn't need to play fast against Weyland if they don't start advancing agendas (Supermodernism style Weyland forces the runner to react). Runners against that deck will just play slower and rig&money up which deck needs some ways to prevent. Also I feel Trick of Light works so much better with Titan.

The problems you describe are all correct, that's why I have this particular build. With the astronomy ice, you have a motivation to use your ability since a click is worth 3 credits, no other ID synergizes so well with that ice (1 click + 1 credit for 3 credit discount is not that great). The deck can in fact become taxing quickly enough and cheaply as well.

All your agendas can either be scored from hand or never advanced (5/3's need 2 TOL's but it is doable) that's why you have space camp to bait the runner. Titan with TOL is better as pure FA strategy, but one Atlas getting stolen is enough to halt its plans... Titan won't match BWBI's taxing power if the FA plan is foiled.

[mendax]

Fwiw, here's my BWBI list:

Agenda (6)
2x Priority Requisition (Core Set)
1x Eden Fragment (The Spaces Between)
1x Hades Fragment (Up and Over)
1x Utopia Fragment (The Source)
1x Government Takeover (Order and Chaos)

Asset (8)
3x Melange Mining Corp. (Core Set)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) •••
2x Constellation Protocol (Order and Chaos)

Upgrade (3)
3x Ash 2X3ZB9CY (What Lies Ahead) ••••• •

Operation (12)
3x Archived Memories (Core Set) ••••• •
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
3x Commercialization (Cyber Exodus)
3x Punitive Counterstrike (True Colors)

Barrier (8)
3x Ice Wall (Core Set)
3x Asteroid Belt (Order and Chaos)
2x Fire Wall (Order and Chaos)

Code Gate (6)
3x Wormhole (Order and Chaos)
3x Builder (Order and Chaos)

Sentry (6)
3x Nebula (Order and Chaos)
3x Orion (Order and Chaos)

15 influence spent (maximum 15)
21 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Order and Chaos

I've not played many games with it yet, but so far it feels viable, even if not amazing. That's still of course a massive improvement on where it was not too long ago. I would also say that I haven't played this in any context where time is relevant - i suspect it would be unusable in tournament play.

EDIT: I played an earlier version of this on @moistloaf's stream the other night. It wasn't bad, but dear god it durdled (also, I misplayed due to not realising how annoying David was, but ah well).

[PeekaySK]

Funny you should start this thread now, I spent all of yesterday tinkering with New And Improved BWBI. Here's what I've found:

• You're a weird kind of Weyland, able to operate on < 5 credits routinely
• Ash or Caprice is a must, so far I highly prefer Caprice due to her cost efficiency
• Builder is an ingenious piece of ICE that nicely solves the "advancement takes time" issues, much better than Matrix Analyzer
• I've tried ToL for scoring, it didn't work out well enough for me to like it - you're good at building remotes, why not use that. GRNDL Ref seems reasonable to bait runs through expensive servers and to waste D4V1D counters
• Constellation Protocol is a solid 2-of
• You need both Space ICE and good ol' growing walls (running 3x Ice 3x Fire at the moment, definitely wouldn't go lower) - one for early defense, the others so the tax continues to increase. Asteroid Belt doesn't seem worth pursuing.

Overall, as someone who messed with BWBI a lot before the big box, I feel that Space ICE + Builder solve most of the ID's issues handily.

[moistloaf]

You're a weird kind of Weyland, able to operate on < 5 credits routinely

I noticed this immediately playing against @mendax. Rezzing huge Space ICE for free after a few turns is nuts

[mendax]

Side note - Breach is surprisingly good. Breaks Asteroid for 4, Orion for 6, Fire wall for 2 to begin with, then 4.

[Syntax]

Played vs @PeekaySK (he won. Both made some mistakes, me in the middle/end, him in the begining).
He was piloting something close to @mendax list.

I noticed that BWBI + advancing ices starts very very slow.

The main reason being all those ice have rez costs >= 6, the only exception to this are Ice Walls, so to me the risks for the runner aren't that high : the runner can facecheck early and very agressivly in the begining.

If the corp rez something that'll hurt the runner, then other servers are open for a few turns (because the corp clic advance, and clic play a card, then have only one clic to make credit - for exemple a second ice).
When the corp installs a piece of ice, that server is not that protected until the ice have been advanced.

I think that kind of list could have made a very good use of a few, cheap and annoying ices in the begining of the game, such as (say) Shadow or even Caduceus.
Those ices are "come here, don't come again until..." pieces of ices, because a Builder won't keep you outside of a server if he's alone, I don't remember seing any low piece of ice that he could rez for credits but Builder and both walls, which are not models of agressiveness at rez.

That been said, end of our game was very strong for the corp. Not that risky for the runner because the dangerous ices tends to rez late game (Wormhole are 4 clics each, Orions 6 clics each) and the runner allready have breakers installed. But very tax demanding ices for the rig I used (Eater / Crypsis).

[mendax]

I've since made major edits to my list, fwiw, not least because I only just realised that Orion was unique, so have 3x Orion probably wasn't the best idea. Anyway, shadow is definitely tempting - I've now got 1x Shadow, and could possibly be convinced to put in more.

Also, 3x Builder is so, so good, with both walls to pump even once all the space ice up.

I also just played a BWBI with an eater rig, though he was doing ToL scoring from hand and using Firmware to get the counters back. I only won by sniping a Contracts with Quest Completed, because there was no way i could get in without eater to score traditionally, and I couldn't run often enough to turn keyhole into more than a minor annoyance.

[Syntax]

@mendax Yup, same story for Eater / Keyhole.

I wonder if clicless economy wouldn't be strong, because as the deck is taxing, I'm not sure the runner would have credits left to trash, for exemple, some PAD. And Subliminal could bring some credits too.

That may solve some early game problems too (aka lots of early turns seemed to be : clic play, clic adv, clic 1cr).

[PeekaySK]

think that kind of list could have made a very good use of a few, cheap and annoying ices in the begining of the game, such as (say) Shadow or even Caduceus

I was running them at some point in yesterday's experiments, but dropped them for Nebulas. Thing is, a Space piece advanced twice has effective rez cost 4 in BWBI. So, if you want a cheap and supremely annoying piece, Nebula does the trick

(it also has the additional benefit of nastifying Wormhole)

[Saan]

In the build I was experimenting with, I was using all 3 pointers and 2 Firmware to lower density. The times I only drew one ice in my opening hand and had to install-advance-BWBI usually don't feel that bad. I can rez the ice if I need to, or if I don't mind the access I can rez a giant piece of ice for nothing the next turn. Going down to very low credits with the Galactic ice doesn't really matter too much, since you're probably rezzing for free anyhow.

[licoricemaniac]

@PeekaySK
- Yes! operating nicely at low credit is something I have noticed as well. This is why I believe this deck is very strong against agressive anarchs and criminals who love resource denial.
- Caprice instead of TOL I was planning to try. Do you run 2 or 3? The problem with 3 is the influence, you have to sacrify Reclamation order... but since you are no longer using TOL, RO is not that powerful now.
- Not Ash! As you said we are running with a low credit pool, Ash is unlikely to be effective.
- Builder somehow never worked for me. When it appears in my opening hand I am unhappy, and when it comes later it is already too late the runner has his breakers... maybe I should give it another shot.
- Without TOL I would definitely run constellation protocol... With TOL the two cards compete for the same resource.
- I added Crisium grid lately and it is very strong to stop maker's eyes on RnD (our biggest fear) and the now popular Eater shenanigans.

@Syntax
- To offset the risk of slow start I run the 3 caduceus, 2 quandaries and the Ice/Fire wall suite. That's 11 ice you are happy to see in your opening hand...

[Feliks]

I've been playing a BWBI list on Octgn and casually in person. I'll probably take it to the next GNK tournament I go to. I use Ash, Constellation Ice, and a few other advancable Ice with most of my influence on Economy.

So far it's ~7-1, but without being really competitively tested. It's fun to rez Ice for 0 credits and then bounce the tokens around, but it'd probably fold to strong early aggression.

The most interesting game was against a Valencia where I was hit by 3 Investigative Journalisms. I ended up winning, but it was a tight, interesting game where we were both at less than 5 cards in deck. Executive Bootcamp was huge in that game. It's also great for Tyrant, which is awesome against anything other than like...Morningstar.

[voltorocks]

Builder somehow never worked for me...when it comes later it is already too late the runner has his breakers

they have their breakers? perfect: please repeatedly pay 4-5 credits to break a 2 cost ICE. or, let me increase that Ice wall tax by 2 every time you run, your choice.

[licoricemaniac]

I guess you weren't traumatized like I was by stealth kit... worse nightmare for this deck.

[PeekaySK]

I dunno, man - Wormhole seems pretty complicated to stealth through. Also, Builder is nightmarish for Kit, because that thing even repeatedly moves into the worst position for Kit on its own!

My list seems fine - if I don't lose in the first, like, 3 turns, it's got a really good chance at winning, especially against all these new anarchs.

(I wanna tinker with it some more before publishing it, though)

[Feliks]

Builder vs Kit is very annoying, have experienced...except in Ice Destruction, where you blow up everything advanceable and leave Builder until you have to kill it with Spooned to get to the gooey center.

[stoppableforce]

The space ice jank is real. However, the space ice jank is not unanswerable; every faction has a way around it. And that's okay! I think my overall opinion is that O&C elevated BWBI from 'dead in the water' to 'playable as a glacier ID'. Here's my early observations:

• You absolutely want Builder. Early game Builder is how you solve the problem of losing clicks and money advancing ice. (I saw @Moistloaf playing a game on his stream vs. ... @mendax I think? The Corp's early R&D ice was a Builder into a Wormhole, which, while penetrable, meant he had 7 advancements on Wormhole in no time. If that's not Commercialism fodder, I don't know what is. An Ice Wall that got placed in the middle was at 3 strength before it was even rezzed.)
• The amount of advancements you'll be making makes Commercialism viable. Especially in BWBI, where you're mostly reclaiming your lost clicks.
• If you're going full glacier, Caprice is better than Ash because you're often running at low credits.
• Asteroid Belt is almost certainly worse than Fire Wall. They both start off vulnerable to D4v1d, so you may as well pick the one that's going to get even more obnoxious once the tokens run out.
• Satellite Grid is probably worth considering, but only for your remotes. I really think (at least for the time being) you're going to want Crisium Grid on R&D and/or HQ to take a dump on Eater for a while. Once the Eater-Siphon-Keyhole-Vamp-Wontons frenzy subsides and everyone goes back to playing Prepaid Kate, Satellite Grid becomes even more interesting. (Grid also presumably interacts with Commercialism, and has interesting play with Morphs, flipping all of them at once on a server for a credit.)