Off the grid players, what’s your strategy for pushing through 5-3s in the off the grid server? When I tested the card, I felt the main weakness was that it took one too many clicks to set up (install OTG, IAA agenda, AAA agenda, not to mention crisium, which I wasn’t testing at the time). Hence the OTG had to be rezzed across two runner turns, giving them 8 clicks to get into HQ instead of 4. Do you ice the OTG to protect it, or live bold and rely on crisium to protect it?
I played a bunch of practice games this weekend, mostly against noise. The noise matchup is a lot more difficult than I was giving it credit for. Some thoughts:
Unlike NBN, blue sun games are drastically different whether the runner is andy or noise. Noise doesn’t care about your plans to win the economy war; noise’s plan is to keep you off-balance with enough disruption to the point that you just can’t score anything during the late game.
You need to play to make noise’s parasites bad way before they show up. Make him get out crypsis to earn his datasucker tokens, and play around grimoire by advancing ice walls. If he has grimoire and a clone chip, datapike needs to be protected (or derezzed).
Lotus field is probably a mandatory 2-of, possibly more important than the 2nd or 3rd tollbooth. The early-game rush plan is a lot riskier for fear of david or parasite but I would feel safe with just a single lotus field any time he doesn’t have crypsis money.
The general pattern of games is that you can rush out 3 or 4 points early, and create scoring windows in the late game by giving the runner NAPD contracts. But against noise, it’s harder to keep a lot of ice on your scoring remote, so making him run through it isn’t as good at creating windows. Depleting noise’s credit pool doesn’t actually make you safe because of david, so I think having the SEA+scorch package is better than cutting it for more economy/better ice.
I added in a swordsman for this exact reason.
Crypsis, and to a lesser extent Atman are issues. I’d suggest adding a one of and bouncing it after Rez, potentially tutoring it with Atlas. It’s only 1 inf after all
I haven’t tried sea-scorch yet but Punitive is a Threat to noise.
I was using a two of lotus field but switched out for tollbooth in that codegate slot because the server tax feels more important outside of the anarch matchup. I respect the d4v1d hate though.
In slightly other news I’ve found architect to be very useful overall. He allows you to be more aggressive with moving ice including himself and brings back wasted roots/willos and chucked ice. Those lost install clicks feel a lot more reasonable if they hit Architect twice after a bounce/reinstall into another server
Here is my take.
I don’t run the OAI Combo instead I try to set up the “Amazon Engine”.
Put the AIZ on a central server, depending on matchup, most often HQ.
This alone, together with a 3 cost Ice like Caduceus or Enigma, gives you Beanstalk like Money every turn.
After that build your scoring remote and put The Root in there, now you can do the same thing with a 5 cost Ice like Hive or Lotus Field for Restructure like money.
As long as the Engine is not in place play a normal Glacier like game and put your Wisps down in your Centrals so that you can hit a breaker when they try to get in, this might create a scoring window or a chance for a Aggresive Secretary.
Once the runner saws the first Wisp all your other Upgrades become potential Wisps which often slows him down which gives you more time to set up your board state…
By the time your remote is “Life”, with at least one Archer and a Coorporate Troubleshooter and enough money, start to score, or bait them into a Aggresive Secretary.
Dont be afraid of the Bad Publicity just dont forget to calculate it when you do the math for the Corporate Troubleshooter, its not unusual to pump 20+ Credits into him, but that is the game plan and that is how you might win the game.
If the runner is just sitting back and going for the EcoWar just play along and once you are ready try to make them run into a Aggresive Secretary, this should give you a large enough scoring window to swing the game into your direction.
The Agenda Suit of this build is also very flexibl.
If you have the engine in place and need to safe the Install cost of the ice you recure every turn, try to score the Eden Fragment.
If you play vs Noise try to score the Hades Fragment…
Scoring a Priority Requisition is also nice, if you can get an expensive Ice back to hand and rezz it again for free, don’t always rezz your Archers with it, the suprise factor might be better then the saved Agenda Point, but that is a judgment call and depends heavily on the board state.
All in all I love Blue Sun and the flexibillity it offers…
Weyland “Amazon Engine”
Blue Sun: Powering the Future (Up and Over)
15 influence spent (max 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Up and Over
Deck built on NetrunnerDB.
Novel build. Looks more like Uncorrodable and less like either supermodernism or glacier. I’ll have to try it out. I’ve tried AIZ in my glacier build and it definitely has potential, but it seems to have less resiliency than the root.
Have you played it much vs noise? I feel like will-o shines against criminal but would be completely dead against noise.
Like you said last night @bblum, weyland’s ice isn’t quite there yet. The agendas aren’t much of a picnic either, so many of them do nothing when scored.
I like a mono-glacier blue sun, but ending the game with 40 credits feels like such a waste, trying to play an SE combo deck feels like it’s spread too thin.
I don’t mind playing that way in CI because I can just hold everything and pick the best strategy, but in BS, it’s probably a pain in the dick having to abandon a combo-kill because you need to discard something with a stacked hand.
I disagree on that count… Atlas is excellent, and takeover is the game’s best 2/1 (it doesn’t have a home in my build, but it makes atlas and archer good enough that I can see there being a good build using it). Plus, priority requisition is easier to trigger than it was in ETF glacier. It’s true that we don’t have anything as good as TFP… but I rate blue sun glacier as strong or stronger than ETF glacier at the moment.
If you consistently end games with 40 credits, maybe swap out some econ for more ICE (and make sure you’re maxed out on ashes)? That’s what I found was happening when I tried out Toybox, and to a lesser extent, why I think adonis’s 2 influence could be spent better. I also slot 1 interns (2 if I expect to play noise) where more economy could be, to recur ash.
Haven’t bothered to try the root, I think it gives the runner too many options.
I think I’m on 40 credits at the end of the game because the runner isn’t running and my ice is all unrezzed like when playing RP, runners aren’t making runs they know they can’t afford. It’s not technically all liquid, but it ends up being inefficiently spent money by the end of the game.
More ashes would be nice, as I haven’t rezzed an ashe in 6 games.
After participating the Bad Publicity live youtube show that you were a guest on - I made some significant changes to the Blue Sun deck that I had on paper based on some of the Q&A I had with you. Thanks for some of the tips! Playing Weyland without any Bad Pub cards has been an interesting experience.
Tonight was the first night that I actually playtested the ID. I’m something stupid like 9 for 9 right now. Undefeated anyway.
The Root has been incredibly fun. Datapike is fun as a Tollbooth-lite too, and pulling it back if Yog ever hits the table is great. Main differences between my deck and yours are that I’m running Taurus and Beanstocks.
Taurus hasn’t been incredibly useful yet - since Plascrete became so much less popular, it serves less of a purpose.
I’m skeptical about Taurus’ inclusion, but it feels like it is useful in a deck that intends to Scorch. Further play testing is required. I’m hopeful that it’ll live up to it’s place in the deck.
Beanstocks has mostly been a “who cares?” card. I’ll probably be cutting it for Hive or something. The amount of times where you’re actually poor with this faction are so few and far between that I don’t think the card is doing anything for me here.
Cards that I feel are a wonderful counter to this style are like… D4v1d, boosted by E3s if possible. I’ve played against Blue Sun a few times after I’ve played as the ID, and am 3 for 3 against it as well.
Oh yeah, and for the haters… Project Atlas is probably the 3rd best agenda in the game. (in line after AstroScript and NAPD)… If you’re in a position to overadvance this (IAA, AAA), it is the best tutor in the game, and basically just brings you the win condition or whatever extremely helpful card you’d like just about whenever you’d like. Just having a token for it neuters Indexing too, it’s glorious!
@bblum You have the Root and AIZ in this build and if they hit the AIZ more often then not they also hit a Wisp,
which is kinda what you want anyway so its a win win.
I played a few games against noise and it seems to be on of the easier matchups.
The Wisps are not usless at all against him in my expierience.
hitting his Crypsis or his Darwin often spells doom right there,
if they run Djinn I might not bother spending the 4 credits tho.
That Amazon deck looks nothing like Uncorrodable…
Hopping on the Project Atlas Love Train… that Agenda is incredible.
Biggest problem with AIZ is the trash cost of 2. How do your AIZ survive their first access?
I think Blue Sun’s biggest downside is the click loss if you intend to reinstall the bounced ICE/card every turn. I haven’t played yet with Blue Sun, but I know with Uncorrodable I always have plenty to do with my clicks. I guess that “lost” click replaces your Hedge Fund/Restructure, which makes sense. I probably will not test Blue Sun until Up & Over is physically released; once I have it, it’ll definitely be sleeved up ASAP for the LGS!
Can you use Blue Sun’s ability to pull back Oversight AI?
No, OAI is installed as a hosted condition counter, not a card that you can pull back. But you can pull back the ICE and install it again. If you do that for a curtain wall, then OAI changes to a double event that gives you 13c at start of turn.
AIZ trash cost might be a problem, but if you install it behind two pieces of ice, which you should, its not to bad and its a decent tax at least, keep in mind that he has to honor the treat of a sea source scorch combo which might slow him down until he is set up, that might give you enough time so abuse AIZ long enough to get a headstart in the Eco Battle…
I always hear people go on and on about “respecting Scorch” and I don’t understand it. From someone who plays very aggressively as Runner and rarely gets Scorched, what does it mean to “respect Scorch” ? No one should be getting flatlined by a single Scorch. It’s so unbelievably easy to stay out of single Scorch range as to not need discussing. Therefore, I have to assume that when people say “SEA/Scorch combo” they are referring to a double Scorch. That requires 8c (and an entire turn), without the Corp boosting SEA trace at all. IMO, it is so easy to avoid being flatlined by Scorch, and therefore, I find it difficult to “respect” or “honor” SEA/Scorch combo.
not respecting scorch means making plays that get you flatlined. if you run without enough credits in your pool to beat a trace, you are not respecting scorch.
If you run last click without decoy that is not respecting scorch.
Respecting scorch also means recognizing when you can’t simultaneously get in to the corp’s scoring remote and keep enough backup money to evade SEA source. That’s why I think blue sun glacier+scorch is so powerful - it’s way easier for the corp to create (or bluff) scoring windows, and further drain the runner’s money with big ice that weyland couldn’t previously afford to run.
Imagine if you were playing regular supermodernism with BABW or grndl, except SEA source said “trace 17”.
I assume you mean “install two pieces of Ice in front of AIZ”? If not, you lose pretty much all of the benefit of it, don’t you?
Keeping tags with the ability to eat less than 8 meat damage is another. One of the reasons MN Scorch is so effective, Midseasons tags are harder to get rid of.
EDIT:…these were meant to be in one response, sorry about that.
How much Scorch is actually in your meta? Have you played against Weyland Power Shutdown combo? With proper setup…
- You can get Trace 4, SEA double Scorched when Corp has as little as $3.
- You can get SEA double Scorched even if the Runner is slightly ahead on credits.
- You can get double Scorched without a trace due to Posted Bounty getting scored from deck.