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Collaborating to make Kit good out of the box in C&C


#1

The following is a very long post with my stream of conscious commentary as I attempt to determine if Kit “stupidnickname” Pedler will be a competitive shaper identity.

Problems with Kit:

  1. Corp anti kit strategies.

Playing ice that is expensive to rez, and can’t be walked through with yog on the outside of a server can really negate kit’s ability. Ichi is still 6 credits to break with a gordian blade.

Standard inside job protection. The corp can slap pop up windows and ice walls and other cheap ice as the top layer in all of their servers in the same manner as they would protect against inside job to negate kit’s ability. Additionally, the corp might want enigmas and other ice they would otherwise throw away when the runner has a yog to cap off their servers.

The worst part about all of this is that the corp can use both strategies at the same time to build effective servers.

  1. 10 influence! This is extrmely restrictive, in my opinion kit’s ability does not warrant such a harsh penalty.

Since influence is half of deck building, I think it’s important to discuss how to spend these 10 influence points to make kit work well.

Her ability is the nuts in the early game, and becomes less useful, in theory, once the corporation can lay a second and third layer of ice.

The first instinct is to play yog.0 on a dinosaurus and constantly get the inside job ability. Backed up by some tinkerings, this seems like an awesome strategy. My problem with this strategy, and the purpose for this discussion is this:

yogosaurus is an expensive 2 card combo that kit needs to assemble in the first 1-3 turns in order to cash in on her ability (and thus mitigate her influence penalty.)

Yog is obviously great, and in a kit deck we want to play at least 2, probably even 3 if we can set the deck up to take advantage of her ability. Boosting yog is going to be worth it against almost every deck, for boosts we have personal touch, dino, ice carver, and data sucker.

I don’t think I’d want to play more than 2 dinos in a kit deck, and thus not want to rely on them for yog. The existence of salavage means that if necessary we could play it in our kit decks and salavage yog for itself in order to host it on a dino once you have installed one later in the game.

if the current trend continues and cheap ice continues to be king – using an anarch rig might be the right choice.

3 mimic, 3 yog, 3 data sucker? geeze 9 influence already? Maybe this isn’t the right way to go?

Should kits early game strategy be to just sure gamble (maybe modded) out a gordian blade or yog on turn 1 and just run hard? That seems very good to me - certainly a good excuse to not spend influence on inside job and save it for tricks with better late game like stimhack.

How to keep up the pressure if you can install an early decoder? Criminals have account siphon and shutdown and desperado, what kind of early game pressure can shaper use to snowball into the late game? Siphon, Shutdown and desperado are pretty much unplayable as 1 ofs and Kit doesn’t have the influence for more than that. She definitely has influence for data suckers, which might be the best way for her to start putting herself ahead of the corp through making early runs.

Shaper has a lot of lategame tools at their disposal, but I’m not seeing anything to help kit threaten the corp early on, making kit’s ability hurt has to be priority 1.

I think 1 or 2 escher could find their way into this deck, Late game escher’s will be pretty clutch - how strong early game eschers can be I think is something that might need to be determined after testing.

Given that I would want escher in this deck to keep kit’s ability ticking if the game goes long – I definitely want sneakdoor beta in this deck. If I can get the corp to dump 1, 2 or even 3 ice on archives, that just gives me the perfect place to stash my opponents 3 best ice after an escher.

2-3 yog, 2-3 data sucker, 1 sneakdoor, some mimics and some stimhacks seems like a fine influence package at this point.

I don’t feel like I have enough influence to run data suckers at this point, I’d rather have femmes for testrun instead of mimics.

Now I definitely want test-run because It’s more important to spend fewer credits and lose some tempo than to just tutor out a program with self-modifying code (because im making runs instead of clicking opus).

Since most of what I encounter will be code gates, I shouldn’t need to tutor for other breakers, why would I want self modifying code at all? Test-run femme is the best interaction for this deck, it’s less influence than inside job and it has actual synergy with kits ability.

My thought is that the MU cost of self modifying code won’t be a big issue since I can get away without a full rig for a long time, and lacking influence for extra copies of sneakdoor, self modifying code seems like the best second choice. Additionally, there might be programs that I would want tutors for like paricia depending on what other cards come out or how the meta develops.

With the presence of self-modifying code, I don’t want modded for this deck, I’d rather have easy mark or armitage codebusing, stimhack also would be another way to get a femme on the table with SMC.

Deck so far:

1 Kit

Programs (14)
3 yog [] [] []
2 gordian blade
2 self modifying code
1 sneakdoor beta [][][]
2 magnum opus
2 femme fatale [] []
2 snowball or battering ram (depending on how easily I can get extra MU)

Event (16)
2 Stimhack [] []
3 Test Run
3 Sure Gamble
3 Tinkering
3 diesel
2 quality time
2 Escher

Hardware (8)
2 dinosaurus/Omni Drive?
3 Personal Touch
3 RDI / makers eye

Resource (5)
3 Armitage Codebusting
2 personal workshop

So yeah, obviously no good answer to scorched earth, probably can ditch personal workshop for plascretes if they are necessary, I don’t like playing expensive cards like femme and RDI without an option to keep hands with no econ but workshop.

Kit seems like a good candidate for the runner “choke” deck that could possibly be made when archive restoration comes out in spin cycle. Getting a yog down and locking your opponent out of drawing ice they can use as defense might be a good way to keep the early game power of kit snowballing while your opponent draws the same old thing and you keep ahead of him by looking 1 card deeper with RDI.


#2

I gotta reread this later, but yeah, Escher seems insane. Honestly insane in any deck.

Desperado seems pretty awesome in Kit. Desperado x 2, Yog x 3, Femme x 1 would probably be my deck :smile:


#3

Good thoughts. I especially like Sneakdoor + Escher.

I actually think Dino is a huge trap, and will probably just try personal touches and helpful AI.


#4

Yeah, the fantasy of Dinoyog sounds awesome but it just always seemed like I’d rather just run again than save up to install a Dino. With my CT deck at least.


#5

So here’s where I ended up thinking about my deck. It’s sort of my CT deck on steroids – you wanna crush the first few turns with an early Indexing or Maker’s Eye, and you’ll have access to any 2-ice server with Tinkering.

I’m on the fence about Battering Ram – it seems better than Snowball, which I really dislike, but the 2 MU could be an issue until Desperado is out. I think there are enough tricky ways to get into most any server, but the late game could be tougher. Win fast :smile:

I think you’d really wanna capitalize on the early game with like a Yog + Indexing or Maker’s Eye. That’s when you have the biggest advantage. I think Desperado would be huge in this deck, helping to mitigate some of the money issues.

I was waffling on Gordian Blade vs. Zu. I like Gordian Blade better overall, but if I was kit and I wanted to see one or the other in my opening hand, I think I might prefer Zu. It allows me the credit flexibility to have a more aggressive open. I still don’t know. I like that Gordian synergizes with Tinkering.

I’ve always been a little iffy about Modded… it seems ok, but there are probably better cards. I’m kind of wavering between Modded and Dirty Laundry. I think Dirty Laundry’s probably better, since it functions well during all stages of the game.

One card I’d like to see in here is Infiltration. Not sure how to get it in. Also I didn’t think too much about the new tutoring cards, but they seem kind of unnecessary for Kit.

Total Cards: (45)
Event (21)
Escher x2
Indexing (Future Proof #106) x3
Test Run (Cyber Exodus #47) x3
Tinkering (Core #37) x3
The Maker’s Eye (Core #36) x3
Quality Time (Humanity’s Shadow #87) x3
Dirty Laundry x3
Sure Gamble (Core #50) x3

Hardware (3)
Desperado (Core #24) x2 ■■■
Plascrete Carapace (What Lies Ahead #9) x1

Program (11)
Yog.0 (Core #14) x3 ■
Femme Fatale (Core #26) x1 ■
Battering Ram (Core #42) x2
Crypsis (Core #51) x2
Gordian Blade (Core #43) x3

Resource (8)
Personal Workshop (Cyber Exodus #49) x2
Armitage Codebusting (Core #53) x3
Kati Jones (Humanity’s Shadow #91) x3

Influence Values Totals -
Anarch: 3
Criminal: 7
Shaper: 66


#6

I think dirty laundry will be great. I am leaning still 50/50 makers eye versus RDI, I like the run packaged in, I also like the option of paying for rdi with a stimhack.

I think you should use personal touch… yogging through ichi seems important. Lose the crypsis?

-1 dirty laundy +1 infiltrate?


#7

Yeah, I suppose Ichi’s an issue. I’m always stuck between building decks that rig up, and going for aggro; I always pick more aggro. Both RDI and Makers are great… hard to pick one :smile: pick both, haha.

Yeah, Omni-Drive’s interesting, could fit something like Zu or Gordian. Just throwing it out there, but maybe Yog is a trap, and Zu + Gordian x3 is correct. Save your influence for something better… Corroders or something.


#8

For an RnD lock type Kit deck, I love the idea of Kraken! Use Indexing or RnD interface or Maker’s Eye to grab an agenda then Kraken RnD softening it up for further code gate madness in the future.

With Scavenge in faction and Personal Touch/Helpful AI along with Datasuckers (or go crazy and include Ice Carver) I think there’s enough strength boosting stuff to make Yogosaurus a good mid to late game goal with the other stuff to help until you see your Dinosaurus. I mean with Ichi all Yog needs is one strength from somewhere most of the time (barring Corp shenanigans).


#9

I think without a doubt that dropping yog on turn 1 should be your goal every game. I also think that there are not enough deck slots to make use of scavenge and consequently dino.

The benefit of scavenge in this deck would be that you could run fewer dinos and plan to play one later, then scavenge whatever you had in play onto the dino (likely yog) - the problem is now, instead of freeing up deck slots from dino, you are using up more deck slots to play scavenge - which doesn’t have enough utility in this deck to warrant inclusion.

Ice carver is good, but if you run 2 of them you have spent 6 of your influence on something you can do in faction with personal touch. Helpful AI, would be something that makes it into my deck at the last minute if I think that the link will be important to have in my metagame - not worth committing slots to at this stage.

Datasucker would certainly be good in this deck; however I am trying to be stingy with my influence so I am not sure if I can afford to run them yet. Right now, personal touch seems like enough.

Kraken I have not used in any deck ever, so I guess you would have to try it out and get back to me.

This is where I am at right now:

Identity:
Kit

Total Cards: (45)
Event (22)
2x Escher (Creation & Control)
3x Tinkering (Core #37)
3x Test Run (Cyber Exodus #47)
2x Quality Time (Humanity’s Shadow #87)
3x Diesel (Core #34)
2x Infiltration (Core #49)
2x Indexing (Future Proof #106)
2x Stimhack (Core #4) ■
3x Sure Gamble (Core #50)

Hardware (7)
1x Plascrete Carapace (What Lies Ahead #9)
3x Dinosaurus (Cyber Exodus #48)
3x R&D Interface (Future Proof #107)

Program (8)
3x Yog.0 (Core #14) ■
1x Sneakdoor Beta (Core #28) ■■■
2x Femme Fatale (Core #26) ■
2x Snowball (Trace Amount #27)

Resource (8)
3x Kati Jones (Humanity’s Shadow #91)
3x Armitage Codebusting (Core #53)
2x Personal Workshop (Cyber Exodus #49)

Cutting the personal touches was hard, but since I am running workshop, I think dino is a fine way to get some MU and +str.

Want to fit dirty laundry in here somehow but not sure, Sure gamble seemed like a fine compromise since I wouldn’t be able to drop a yog and dirty laundry on turn 1 without clicking for credits. Since I am not running MO, I kind of want both.

Running RDI over makers eye because half of the deck is events, and I need stuff for workshop. If I cut the workshops, I’d play 2 SMCs instead of PW and then use makers eye over RDI. Actually, then I could cut the quality times and run 2x dirty laundry.

Snowball… I hate you so much. Probably going to switch these for battering rams once I can actually start testing the deck.

The influence package of 2 femme, 1 sneakdoor and 3 yog and 2 stimhacks seems like the best use of influence for now.

Femmes are essential because I am trying to save money by yogging through everything, and I need femme to counter early big ice plays that can slow me down. Being able to trick them into play with test run can set up really strong turns with indexing. Femme has a very high utility rating in this deck.

Yog is here because It makes kit extremely threatening. The corp has to change their playstyle once kit gets yog down

Sneakdoor I like in shaper decks since they can tutor it out if they need it and it’s a good surprise card. Kit can get it out fairly easily through draw power or tutors and it helps her threaten every server mitigating the issue of corp hedge funding and rezzing a big piece of ice on R&D turn 1. It also has the benefit of making my eschers better. Moderate Utility.

Stimhack fills out my last two influence nicely, this deck will have some money trouble, and that makes stimhack a great trick. Stimhack has a very high utility rating in this deck because of either workshop or self modifying code.


#10

Quick note. You can playtest kit right now on OCTGN, although it’s a bit weird as obviously self-modyifying code and escher might be changers for her various archetypes.

On OCTGN, build a chaos deck. Put in 45 cards, not the 40, don’t include too much influcence and manually adjust her opening MU stat. Voila. Have your opponent treat each first thing encountered as code-gate and you are good to go.


#11

OCTGN really leaves a bad taste in my mouth, DB0’s programming is great, I just don’t feel like I am improving my game at all playing in the deck test-pit that is OCTGN.

Although, I did take the deck as a CT deck to league night last week. Having so many decoders was awkward; however I think Kit would have made it work.


#12

Tangent but: an opening hand of SMC + SMC + Stimhack would be insane!
Oh damn…could run while fetching up Yog.0 and a second breaker and still have one click left over.

In any case, I can’t really decide what I want Rielle’s breaker suite to be:

Option A: “Yog with Crypsis Assist”

1_Yog.0 (code gate)
2_Crypsis (ai)
3_Datasucker (utility)
4_Parasite (utility)

Running 3x Yog.0•••, 3x Crypsis, 2x Parasite••••, 2/3x Datasucker•••, 3x The Personal Touch, 3x Self-Modifying Code, 1/0x Stimhack

Option B: “Fixed Breaker Suite”

1_Yog.0 (code gate)
2_Corroder (barrier)
3_Mimic (sentry)
4_Datasucker (utility)

Running 3x Yog.0•••, 1x Crypsis, 1x Corroder••, 1x Mimic•, 2x Datasucker••, 3x The Personal Touch, 2x Stimhack••, 3x Self-Modifying Code, 1x Test Run


#13

I think data suckers would be a nice alternative to desperado. If nothing makes anarch breakers bad, it will probably be worth running the rest. Not crazy about crypsis in this deck yet, maybe if escher proves to be as good as I hope.


#14

Shaper Siphon:

Reille “Kit” Peddler: 45 cards

2 Account Siphon (8*)
3 Same Old Thing

1 Yog.0 *
3 Gordian Blade
1 Femme Fatale *
1 Snowball
3 Crypsis

3 Self Modifying Code

3 Diesel
3 Quality Time
3 Modded
3 Sure Gamble
3 Dirty Laundry
2 Kati Jones

3 R&D Interface
3 The Makers Eye

3 Plascrete Carapace
2 Dinosaurus


#15

They’re going to start calling you “Alex Account Siphon Frog”


#16

The only thing I really hate about your list Alex is Dinosaurus.

Think you would be better off with two of almost anything, but hopefully a better console will come out that you can swap in instead.


#17

I’ve been tinkering with this deck list for days, and this is what I have so far:

Program (6)[3]
3 Self-Modifying Code
3 Datasucker • • •

Icebreaker (6)[3]
3 Yog.0 • • •
3 Crypsis

Event (20)[0]
3 Sure Gamble
3 The Maker’s Eye
3 Diesel
3 Modded
3 Tinkering
3 Dirty Laundry
1 Stimhack •
1 Escher

Hardware (7)[0]
3 The Personal Touch
3 R&D Interface
1 Plascrete Carapace

Resource (8)[3]
3 Kati Jones
2 Armitage Codebusting
3 Compromised Employee • • •

I can’t decide if the influence on Compromised Employee is worth it. I’d have to test it out. I wish I ran 1 Corroder, but then that would also mean I can’t have a rig with two Datasuckers (Yog.0, Crypsis, Datasucker, Datasucker). The benefits of having two Datasuckers, not only making it easier to break ice with Yog, would make it cheaper to break with Crypsis. However, without a Corroder, especially Ice Wall (but also Wall of Static) seems like a pain.

I might try –3 Compromised Employee, +1 Corroder, +1 Stimhack.

At first I had +3 Indexing (–3 The Maker’s Eye), but on reflection, Rielle’s ability does not compliment running R&D twice in the same turn.


#18

You could always run both, and simply put the agendas at the back of the indexing queue and follow up with a Maker’s Eye a turn or two later.

Regardless, even after seeing Alexfrog’s and your Kit decks, I’m not convinced she’s the go-to Shaper ID. I really wish I could be convinced, actually, as I’m at a crossroads of which ID to apply to my deck, and none of the options is the clear-cut winner.


#19

Kit has the most potential, far and away the best ability we have seen. I say focus on kit, and then when spin cycle starts and you are itching to mess around go for the other IDs.

You can make an argument that professor improves with the cardpool, and exile improves once bodyweight gets reprinted - but at the same time as more shaper cards get printed, the value of an influence point goes down, and having 10 influence isn’t as huge of a liability.

So here is a short list of cards that I don’t want in an aggressive kit deck:

indexing. It’s certainly strong, but it’s usefulness is completely countered by the corp making R&D runs expensive. Ever play a bank job and not be able to afford a successful run on the corps super server? That’s kind of how indexing and seeing agendas you want to steal feels.

Magnum Opus it’s good in a meta where the corp can’t score enough points out of hand too win, right now all of the best tricks are so bursty that I want to spend my clicks on those tricks that the corp doesn’t know about rather than building a huge bank and forcing the corp to turtle harder.

inside job I’ll probably catch flak for this one, but for 3 influence id rather have a desperado. In case anyone doesn’t know, inside job doesn’t stack with kit’s ability (or rather, it DOES stack in a sense that both trigger at the same time) - I don’t want to tie up 3 influence and risk putting myself in an awkward position where I end up using an inside job on a turn where I can only make one run.

any criminal events that aren’t siphon for that matter. I think FAO and shutdown work best together and in multiples. Kit doesn’t have the influence, so if you want those tricks just play Andromeda. Crescentus might have a place in kit’s deck however. It’s one influence, and the MU doesn’t bother kit that much since she probably just needs crypsis, g-blade and yog. It’s kind of a dick in the mouth when she can just yog through whatever you rez (and you have to rez it to burn up her ability) then it gets crescented


#20

Meh I suppose. My primary concern is that with the limited influence, you devoid yourself of so many tricks that make Shaper better; rather Kit’s ability IS your trick and has to be built around to optimize it. Not to mention the ID itself telegraphs what I expect 90% of players will incorporate into their decks. I’d rather run CT (since Kate’s ability conflicts with SMC) and have a ton of surprises in store.

Anyways, one thought I just had for this deck that’d be efficient (and incredibly unique) is Kraken.

Upon first consideration, why would anyone run Kraken. But think about it. Simply select the server in which the corp placed a weak ice in front of the others, and he’ll have little choice but to trash the weakest ice, allowing Kit’s ability to affect the ice that matters. It also pairs well in denial strategies with Crescentus.