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Glacier or Rush decks these days?


#1

Now that Clot is in, there seems to be a obvious shift away from Fast Advance decks. My question is - what is more viable choice now? A pure glacier or a kind of rushy deck?

Which of those has a better matchup against PPVP Kate? RegMaxx? Stealth Andy? What are your thoughts on generic corp archeotypes that have an edge over others in this kind of environment?

Also, what would be the “optimal” corp selection?

ETF, RP, Blue Sun? What advantages and disadvantages are the main points on playing or not playing one of those?

Was there some kind of in-depth analysis after SSCI?


#2

I don’t know of any kind of seriously deep analysis (at least not published; I expect top players did their thing to keep winning), but I can tell you my thoughts on the matter. Be forewarned - most of this will probably be obvious. I’m just not an advanced enough player to offer true insight. Remember that even glacier decks are capable of rushing, and I personally think the strongest corp archetype right now (RP Glacier Rush) uses this strategy - get set up with tons of ICE and money ASAP, and then push out agendas like mad. It’s important to differentiate from a “slow” glacier and a “fast” glacier.

I personally feel both decks types - FA and glacier in both forms are completely viable - I also think a third “hybrid” deck type is also viable, just don’t ask me how to build it. I did take a shot at it with one deck of mine (HB - EtF) that I’ll post if anyone wants. Clot is definitely a speed bump for pure FA decks, but that’s all it is. In some cases, that’s enough to erode FA’s advantage and let the runner get set up for a win. Other times, it’s not. In some cases, Clot won’t be seen at all. I daresay the majority of runner decks won’t even play it. Even if they do, it’s almost always a 1-of, because it’s just dead against other matchups. Meanwhile, if the runner gets set-up quickly enough, they can sometimes lock the glacier corp out of the game, no matter how deep their servers.

On to runner matchups - this can also be a case of personal preference. Against Blitz Kate, I think all three have merits, and you’re probably about even with FA and slow glacier. The recent shift to Blitz Kate was because it was stronger against slow glacier than other builds against that matchup, while also being good against FA, as shown at Worlds last year. Fast Glacier might be your best bet here, specifically RP that I mentioned earlier.

RA-MaxX is fast, applying lots of pressure early and continuing on with a Levy to keep things going. It’s ultimately not very rich though, and has the potential to pewter out and if you can make the game go long. I think slow glacier is your best bet - FA won’t have enough ICE to survive the parasite storm and still get things done. Fast glacier is viable, but not ideal. I’m not too familiar with very slow glacier decks, but I bet someone is if you want suggestions. EDIT: Let me be clearer - MaxX doesn’t need much money to operate, and has a lot of money in the deck, but some of it will get milled off. If you can make runs extra-taxing (slow glacier), that’s your best bet to win against her.

Stealth Andy takes a while to set-up, but once finished with phase 1, moves into phase 2 very quickly with hyper-efficient runs. I recommend FA, specifically Astrobiotics to score out a good number of points before she can get set-up. Hopefully you have 4 or 5 points before she’s good to go, and then you need to draw like mad for the last points, which you SanSan or Biotic or Astrotrain out for the win.

The major corp archetypes I would look for right now are - RP Glacier Rush(probably tops right now; remember the days when Jinteki sucked?), NEH Astrobiotics (not dead, just adjust slightly for Clot), Blue Sun murder (billions of creds to make sure Midseasons/Sea lands), and probably a few others I can’t think of. IT Department seems good. Someone more familiar with corp archetypes can help you more than I can here.

Hopefully I was helpful and not disseminating bad information.


#3

Rush is horrible against SMC. Maxx has access to more of their deck than the average runner. Stealth Andy has a longer setup time but again, starts off with 9 cards.

Given the above, glacier seems like the way to go.

Whether you go with RP or Blue Sun pretty much depends how much D4VID you see. EtF is a step behind RP and Blue Sun, but is still pretty solid.


#4

Glacier with Ash/Caprice is a great start point if you dunno what to do as Corp. Blue sun, or RP, or ETF, or even NBN honestly. Just try shit out.

If you have a reasonable deck, and it has Ash’s and/or Caprice… its probably at LEAST tier 1.5… which is fine enough. Your skill as a corp player can make the difference there.

in my experience, a fast paced Glacier ETF

aka Ash/Caprice/Upgrades and Cheap but taxing ice… with Asset econ, and a player willing to play it a bit loose? That has good matchups on all the types you mentioned in your OP… and probably about even vs Calimsha Kate. Can’t be afraid to lose points. Can’t be afraid to lose econ. Install into your 8+ cred to break remot every. single. fucking. turn.

Biggest weakness to that kinda deck is Noise, by far.

If you have the interests, I can give you a primer and a starting list to try out.

The deck has NO FLASHY DUMB SHIT though… its all numbers. Play only if you like playing the math side of Corp.


#5

Thing is, glacier still suffers from the problem it always has. The runner can just sit and camp the remote building up cash until you try and score. Better players than me have argued the presence of NEH Astrobiotics was in someways good for the game as it allowed glacier archetypes to exist, runners had to build for NEH levels of speed rather than sitting back and making money till they win.

Regardless, i dont think straight glacier is at the top. Vamp + opus is coming back around to devastating effect, the valencia deck that nearly took down the london regionals used this and blackmail so the corp couldnt keep them out, regardless of how fat the stack was on the remote. Stealth Andy has never had an issue with glacier (maybe Blue Sun as that can build mostly with barriers alone).

Dont get me wrong, im an RP player so glacier is my bag, but i can see it getting harder now runners have the oppurtunity to slow down in the absence of fastrobiotics.


#6

Please do. I’ve come up with something myself, and would like to compare notes, ice selection, etc…

ETF rushy (49 cards)

Haas-Bioroid: Engineering the Future

Agenda (10)
3 Accelerated Beta Test
1 Chronos Project
2 NAPD Contract
3 Project Vitruvius
1 Project Wotan

Asset (10)
3 Adonis Campaign
2 Daily Business Show
3 Eve Campaign
2 Jackson Howard

Upgrade (4)
2 Ash 2X3ZB9CY
2 Caprice Nisei

Operation (7)
3 Biotic Labor
3 Hedge Fund
1 Restructure

Barrier (5)
3 Eli 1.0
2 Markus 1.0

Code Gate (8)
3 Enigma
3 Pop-up Window
2 Viktor 2.0

Sentry (5)
3 Architect
2 Ichi 1.0


#7

Just a few differences from my list that’s not too dissimilar; pretty good overall, likely better than mine.

I only have 1 Caprice, but I also suck as Psi Games (less so as the corp), so it’s not as good for me as others.

I cut one Adonis and Eve for 2 Rex Campaign. I know Rex gets next to no play, but I don’t think it’s terrible - easy on the rez cost (1), 3 to trash, and if you’re against Valencia you get rid of that BP - or else force her to drop everything and run that server to stop you, possibly eating up a Blackmail in the process. If you’re not playing Val, it’s a hedge fund, and costs as much to trash as Adonis.

I might consider getting rid of Chronos Project in favor of Director Hass’ Pet Project. Your ICE is gonna get trashed at some point, and you might need a quick bit of money at some point in the game, so you can recur an Eve or what-have-you. It depends on how much work you see CP doing - the one time I got hit with it, it was rough, so maybe it’s better. Your deck also seems a bit faster than mine, so perhaps Chronos is correct - DHPP is better if you want a longer game.

Markus is a bit surprising for me, although it can be wonderful if you get it to go. Costs 3 to break with Corroder, so it’s not terrible for 4 rez.

I’m kind of unsure about Pop-Up Window in general. One credit is not a ton, and I don’t know how many times runners are actually going to run through it. The fact that is also earns is really good, though.

I think Architect is not so good anymore - people have kind of realized it’s a big deal when it goes off. Against HB in particular, no one wants to run R&D without a Mimic out anymore. I don’t know what to play in it’s place though. Ichi 2.0?

Do you put the DBS naked to slow down the runner, or do you protect it with a layer of ICE?

My list had a singleton SanSan to slow down the runner or provide a good FA server - also potentially draw out Stimhacks and the like if I can make it look like an agenda.


#8

Rushing agendas on a SanSan. Clot may actually get Kate worse, as she needs an active SMC or Clone Chip for it - put pressure on them.


#9

Calimsha seems to think that the Kate matchup against FA is good enough without Clot.

Yeah, I just cut the second Legwork for a Femme and a second Stimhack, trading my Atman for a Femme since both serve the same role (albeit Femme with less flexibility than Atman, granted).
Found out that the NBN matchup even without Clot or the second Legwork was still pretty strong.

That’s Calimsha from another thread. I don’t have enough experience with FA against Blitz Kate to say anything for sure. My gut feeling is to agree with this, though.


#10

No Archived Memories for increased flexibility?

Although I am a huge fan of Enigma, I recently cut one for an IQ, which can act as an in-faction Lotus Field. Gives you a bit more legs if the game goes longer. Turing could be worthwhile as well.

Architect is still huge, even if Mimic is rampant these days. At its worst, it’s still a 2cred tax throughout the game and it gained you a credit upon install. Free credits are always nice.


#11

Well, any ICE gives the free credit. I felt like there might be a better sentry in that slot, but I honestly can’t think of one. Architect is probably fine.

Maybe Errand Boy? XD

EDIT: Slight correction.


#12

I haven’t played the deck at all, this is just some brainstorming while on a business trip based off of my HB deck that I’ve played recently.

Ice selection is the most tricky one I think. Viktor 1.0 possibly also deserves a close look, as well as things like Bastion. For Markus I see it as a slightly worse Eli number 4 and 5. Sometimes better (it could be brutal if facechecked as a last click early game), sometimes worse (1 credit cheaper to break than Eli, just 1 click to bypass if no rig). Bastion possibly is better, especially since I would be often trying also the rush tactics and you want to have ETR for that.

Pop up + architect is quite an annoying server to get in already, add another pop up and it is probably going to be only run occasionally. These small boys shine on any often accessed server. Also popups are really nice on your adonis/eve servers, where you make sure that going to trash those becomes 2 credits worse for the runner.

I’ve decided to try out the daily business show as well, since with it now it becomes a very nice collection of assets that deserve to be trashed. Maybe even replacing restructure with a pad campaign could be a good choice. Assets are better the more of them there are, since runner than has to either stop trashing them or stay poor. With that, even a san-san might be a useful addition, instead of caprice…

Archived memories I love, but I’ve also noticed that quite a lot I am just getting that money card back… So not 100% sure how super important is it to have.


#13

My first version used Errand Boy and I also played Sub Boost to make it extra annoying. It was cute until I learned you don’t get a cred for hosting Sub Boost onto an ICE (sad!).

Well yeah, if you need econ at the time you play it, you can get it. But archived also allows you to pull back Biotics for extra pressure on a runner who doesn’t play Clot. Or even a turn of Archived back a trashed asset and installing something in your scoring server. Is it the asset, or an ABT? Go check through that Pop-up Eli server, sure. If you install every turn, that becomes annoying fast.


#14

I never, never get when people say this. If you’re ‘bad at psi’, roll a die. 2/3 chance of winning as corp. If you don’t have as much money, go 1-3 = 0, 4-5 =1, 6 =2.


#15

Of course, if someone sees you randomizing, you’re making it more likely for them to bid 0. So while it’s still a 2/3 chance, you’re worse off economically. This gets even worse if you don’t have as much money. Mind games!


#16

I really should roll when it comes to Psi. But then, people say it’s also a skill, so it’s something that can be trained? If that’s the case, then it makes sense to practice it so that I can become better at what can be a critical skill in a game.

The Psi game mechanic as a whole deserves its own thread, if it doesn’t have one already.


#17

Confirmation bias is a powerful thing.


#18

Some people don’t like to violate the spirit of the game though. I’ll lose, but I’ll do it with good intentions.


#19

I don’t want to play straight Rush or Glacier in this environment; Corp decks need a bit of dishonesty, and the best dishonesty was FA. Now that that’s out I think NA/Kill decks are probably the way to go. Rush usually means some combination of NA and early scoring, but this can be bad because SMC, Parasite, Inside Job; the trifecta of corp sucks at early aggression cards. Glacier is much the same, if you’re waiting to score until you have enough board state, you’ll probably find that they’ve been dumping money on kati waiting for that day (or worse, blackmail!).

I’m lovin the idea of some never advance traps. Rake the runner over you ice as many times in succession as you can, maybe they get some points, but probably not enough to win if you make your ice/traps taxing enough.


#20

I recommend HB brain damage with neural EMP.