Grip, not Hand: Yes We Khan!

Netrunner General
82

Yeah but once per turn and only on one outermost ice : not sure if it would be op for real ?

83

Sure, it would need some restriction. I think it would be fine, because there’s counterplay to heap shenanigans, and she is already at 40/12. Could mean Quality Time or Freelance Coding, maybe Fisk Seminar. As it stands, though, her ability is super narrow, and it does not impress.

1 Like
84

Quality Time. Gosh. :slight_smile:

This is a conspiracy against Criminals : I’m sure now Damon is an Shapnarch lol

85

I haven’t tested this. But it was my first thought:

We Probably Khan’t, But We’ll Give It A Go!

Khan (Blood Money)

Event (13)
3x Account Siphon (Core Set)
3x Dirty Laundry (Creation and Control)
1x Legwork (Honor and Profit)
3x Special Order (Core Set)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)

Hardware (3)
3x Desperado (Core Set) ☆☆☆

Resource (8)
3x Data Leak Reversal (Future Proof) •••
2x Same Old Thing (Creation and Control)
3x TemĂźjin Contract (Blood Money)

Icebreaker (15)
1x Eater (Order and Chaos) •••
2x Faerie (Future Proof)
3x Shiv (The Underway)
3x Spike (The Valley)
3x Crowbar (Chrome City)
1x Breach (Honor and Profit)
1x Passport (Honor and Profit)
1x Femme Fatale (Core Set)

Program (1)
1x Keyhole (True Colors) •••

40 cards (minimum 40)
9/9 (=12-3☆) influence used
Cards up to Blood Money

Is there anything at all here that isn’t just better in Anarch?

2 Likes
86

Why are you running the B&E suite without the link to make them actual cloud breakers, DLR without WNP or Fall Guys to protect it, and a full 3 copies of Desperado in a 40 card deck? It looks like you took two separate decks that you saw were good (Geist and DLR), and kind of smooshed them together in Khan without the support to make either one of them work.

87

You have no draw and you will pass all your game to draw stuff.

That would be okay because you have that breaker install discount but runners are not supposed to instal those 15 breakers on 5 MU (no link for B&E, too).

So in the end, comparing to a classic runner installing one decoder, one fracter and one killer, you’ll end drawing 4 times more for breakers. You should mitigate this :slight_smile:

I’d say, find a full slot for Masanori ? Install stuff 1st passed ice and if successfull, draw ?

Even with Masanori, you will be in need of 2x Earthrise I think.

88

I have no idea if it can be made to work. I got here by (1) I need AI to get Khan to fire and Eater is 1 of the best 2 options. (2) B&E are the way to make the ability fire often enough. (3) if I’m going to play eater I should probably play keyhole.

DLR was a bit of an afterthought. It doesn’t need to be the whole plan though. A few extra accesses when you’ve got most of the way with keyhole but now R&D is prohibitive can win the game.

3 Desperado is always the right number. 3 special orders isn’t.

I certainly need draw. I think I’m probably going to remove dlr and put in the career fair +good stuff package.

B&E should be better for Khan than they are for Geist.

1 Like
89

Masamori + Networking could be a nice synergy in Khan. If you fail the run, then Networking removes the tag with 1c / 1clic aka what you spared with Khan = 0 loss.
If the run is a success, then you gained 1c / a clic / a card, this start to be a little more than half a turn tempo each turn ? :slight_smile:

I like your AI idea.

90

The Eater plan is fine, but you absolutely need the link for B&E, because otherwise you’re installing a single one-shot breaker with low strength (because the rest of your MU is Eater+Keyhole), and you’re just not getting value out of it.

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91

Eater + Keyhole with the B&E as your remote access plan isn’t a bad idea. Just not sure if it is better than the Anarch Eater decks. No way to reliably find Keyhole and/or run 3x without massive Influence spend is a major hit against it.

B&E + Autoscripter on the other hand, is a way to turn her ability into clicks. Might be some value in that. Some sort of better AI would be necessary if the Keyhole plan was ditched. Overmind?

I must put in some thought…

92

There’s always Logos…

93

This I find true. Khan gets an install and credit discount, Geist gets a card draw. So yeah, they should be better for Khan than Geist.

The only mitigating factor is the Cloud nature; Geist only needs 1 Link to get to Cloud status, but Khan needs 2. I feel like if you solve that problem you’ll crack B&E in Khan.

1 Like
94

I find this baffling. Geist draws every time he uses a can, Khan may install once per turn after passing a piece of ice. So, in no universe are the B&E breakers better for Khan than Geist.

4 Likes
95

Click: Draw a card
Click: Install
Click: Gain a credit.

Geist causes the first one to happen. Khan causes the last two to happen. Yes, Geist can get it every time, so if he does it 3 times in one turn he’s ahead of Khan. You have 9 of these breakers. How many times are you going to be ahead of Khan? Answer: Every turn you use 3+ B&E breakers to make a run.

Additionally, using Geist’s ability like that gives you 3 extra cards that you don’t necessarily have the clicks or credits to play/install. Any card you have to throw away at end of turn sets you back.

All that said, a Card is better than a Credit in most cases. So it’s not like you’re getting a whole click ahead with Khan.

Now, Geist is actually currently still better, because of Tech Trader. Khan has Autoscripter, but it’s not clearly Very Good. (And, again, 3 credits vs 1 click, Geist comes out ahead.) (Oh, and yeah, you can use Tech Trader in Khan with the B&E, but Geist is specifically incentivized to use as many Can abilities as possible, so Tech Trader works best for him.)

The end point of all of this is that the B&E suite at least make a certain amount of sense to be used in Khan. Better in Geist? Probably, and right now, Certainly. But it’s worth exploring.

96

I’m not quite following this pseudo-math.

97

1 Install + 1 Credit > 1 Draw
1 Install + 1 Credit <= 2 Draws
1 Install + 1 Credit < 3 Draws

98

Okay, so, let’s assume you’re right. And that this is how Khan math works.

First, Khan has to have a breaker in hand that she wants to install (let’s say we’re credit neutral because she has it in hand in her opening 5).

Second, she has to pass a piece of ice, or use a card to bypass it (we’re going to use Inside Job here (-2 credit).

She installs the thing from hand at -1, now she has a B&E breaker. Cool. (-1 Credit)

She now spends about 5 turns drawing back up because she’s spent everything to get her ability to fire. (minus some amount of pseudo-math credits)

She needs to draw and install +2 worth of Link (so where Geist would probably gain value with just needing the one Forger or one Hopper, she needs two. Let’s say she loses just 1 in this exchange because she’s playing Forger AND Hopper, -2 [and whatever the draws amount to]).

Now she has some amount of breakers installed and can use the B&E suite to jump through a few times.

She has no recursion in faction, so has to splash Levy (we’re at 9 influence)?

Justify the “value” however you want. But if she fires, let’s say, 5 times a game, she’s gained you 5 clicks and 5 credits (*maybe, as you can always install shiv, which loses some of this hypothetical value). Geist will fire 10-15 times a game, or more. He will draw through his 45 card deck way faster than she will her 40 card deck (unless you’re playing bad cards like Fisk Seminar). These issues are not taking into account the fact of deckbuilding. Please, I know we like Khan, but she’s no burglar.

1 Like
99

I don’t think it’s a given that a discounted install is more valuable than a draw–installing an icebreaker is actually one of the weaker actions in the game–you only do it because the corp makes you do it. Putting everything else aside, if you were able to run the exact same deck out of Khan and Geist (so, ignoring the lack of link, loss of influence, and smaller deck, which I think is a net gain for Khan), I think Geist is still significantly more powerful, because once he’s set up running actually gains him momentum–he draws the other breakers he needs, finds more components of his econ engine, and generally gets to spend all of his clicks doing something actively strong. Khan gets discounts, but she has to spend a bunch of clicks drawing to find other pieces.

B&E might still be Khan’s best option, but she’s just worse at it than Geist is.

1 Like
100

I’d say getting Kate+Hayley’s ability for only a specific subset (Icebreakers) is more powerful than a draw.

Though, as you rightly point out, the worst possible subset of cards to give this to would be Icebreakers, specifically because you want to Not Install Them. The only breakers right now that we want to install multiple times are Golden and the B&E suite. (Ok, and the Dogs/Femme, but Crim doesn’t have an easy way to get them back to hand in order to install them again.)

Khan has a powerful ability mitigated by the word ‘Icebreaker’ and ‘When you pass a piece of ICE’. Right now I’m not convinced her ability is worth it. This is in opposition to Nero Severn and Laramy Fisk who have abilities that are always worthless without seeing some drastic change in the available cardpool.

101

You don’t need link for B&E to be a thing. Str 3-4 is usually fine. You might be right about getting to link 2, but maybe not. Finding 2 link is hard. But it might be worth trying. Playing B&E means tech trader might be a thing, but then you’re almost certainly better off playing Geist.

I don’t think it’ll be great but I think it’s worth trying.

3 Likes