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Initial Card Ratings for 33 spoiled C&C cards


#1

Alex has posted up his initial ratings for all 33 of the spoiled CaC cards. You can read his latest article here:

http://stimhack.com/initial-card-ratings-for-33-spoiled-cc-cards/

Disagre, agree? Discuss his ratings here.


#2

Still reading, but I have to say the analysis is spot-on to what I was thinking. Only difference is I’d give Same Old Thing damn near 5/5 for Account Siphon decks, but I knew Alex of all people would instantly recognize its worth.


#3

Well its only 4/5 for Siphon decks because its +2 clicks cost, and doesn’t work without the Siphon. Still, its really stupid that runners get to recur Siphons. Also, its not as good in decks that arent Tag-me and actually need to remove the tags. (Or, its yet another reason to play Tag-me siphon decks)

If you see Same Old Thing enter play, ice the crap out of HQ. Because a Double Siphon is coming.

I’m trying to reserve 5/5 ratings for cards that are on a really insane power level. Even great cards that you’re going to puts in tons of decks are still just 4/5s. 5/5 is for the Siphons, the SanSans, the true game winners.


#4

Fair point, actually. Plus I forgot it’s toast in tag-me decks unless installed and immediately used.

Thomas Haas MIGHT be the counter to Account Siphon that everyone was looking for, but I’m just not sure yet. It’s really nice that it has a multitude of uses, but if it doesn’t help as much as I’m hoping against econ denial, I won’t bother.

Escher will be amazing as a 1-of in my Shaper deck, and Self-Modifying Code will make Shapers extremely versatile and nimble.


#5

Thomas Haas isnt THE counter to Account Siphon, because he does nothing to stop the $15 swing it creates. He might be a minor counter to it, because he can make it so they cant actually take you to $0.


#6

Andromeda is definitely stoked about this set, and I’m still intrigued by Kit + Yogasaurus + new, actually decent, shaper tricks.

Anything decent that says “Event: run” just makes my day. As does Self-modifying code.

Overall, I agree with the assessment that this looks to give runners, especially shapers, many really nice and versatile cards. Less so the corps, especially poor ol’ Jinteki. I haven’t really seen anything that makes by NBN-loving self happy either. I think maybe Big ICE HB (== HB Working As Intended :wink: ) gets the most out of the known cards.


#7

Just noticed your ratings. Looks like they’re pretty similar: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/12887952#12887952

However, I do think Same Old Thing has other powerful uses.
Even just an Emergency Shutdown (in criminal) or Deja Vu (in Noise).


#8

I find it amusing on the current state of the game, that Crims come out even better in a Shaper + HB deluxe expansion. I agree with most of the ratings.

While I feel that Shapers are slowly getting better, I feel that their dominance in late game makes them very hard to balance because if they become too good at the beginning, they can dominate most of the game. As such, I don’t think Shaper will ever be as tournament worthy (Unless they change their lame tournament structure) as Crims/Anarchs.

That being said, I really hate Feedback Filter. Netshield, and to a much smaller extent Deus X, already hurts Jinteki enough that they didn’t need another silver bullet. I already feel that Jinteki is the most enjoyable to play, even if they aren’t super effective and this card is a counter to edge, surprise janus, surprise scorched earth, and lethal net damage. Poor Jinteki :frowning: They should also have been the faction to get Thomas Haas. (Renamed of course)

I wish the first deluxe expansion was neutrals plus every faction getting a few cards.


#9

Yeah, I’ve no idea why they decided to go for a faction box first. None of the other LCG’s produced a faction-specific box until the card pool was much deeper.


#10

Yeah, I have no idea why Shapers needed a third Jinteki hate card in faction. Truly bizarre. :neutral_face:


#11

I think Pro Contacts is getting way too much hate for what it is. I’m not saying its a tremendous card, but it actually gives incentive to doing something that leads toward winning the game – drawing. Additionally drawing isn’t necessarily the same as not taking credits, since you can draw into econ cards or pseudo-econ like Makers Eye. That being said, the multitude of tutoring cards out of Shaper make this not as good. I think comparing it to MO isn’t correct, since the MU and program trashing liabilities won’t hinder aggressive running.

The real problem is its 2 influence cost. I think if this came as a neutral or 1 inf the reaction would be quite different. If you do a little math and think about it a bit you’ll probably agree its a little better than Armitage and a little worse than KJ. I would probably happily play it out of a small rig, event heavy shaper deck. Get paid to draw a Dirty Laundry? Yes please.

Drawing is actually a very powerful action. Just consider the difference between facing a Gabe with a full hand vs an empty hand. So many options are taken off the table, it sets you in a much better position. The real question is how worthwhile drawing is for you - in any event driven deck its pretty nuts. Obviously the utility of this card generally decreases the later the game gets.

Anyway, figured I’d put my defense of PC out there… Would rather not fight the hordes on bgg over it, but its not a terrible card by any means.


#12

Agreed, Pro Contacts appear to be at least reasonable because 1 card > 1 credit (most of the time).


#13

I disagree, I don’t think this card is good for any aggressive decks at all. Depending on your rig, 5 credits is giving up at least 1 run, playing this card is a big tempo loss for decks that want to run all the time. Furthermore, you have to beat traces and clear tags until you have at least broken even with the card to get value out of it before the corp explodes it.

For 2 influence you can get 2 quality times, which I think matters much more to an aggressive deck than another durdle card. QT is solid burst card draw that nets you 5 clicks worth of draws for 1 click. The 3 credit cost is mitigated, and converted into income when you draw an account siphon (and you will when you are drawing 12.5% of your deck in a single card.)

Maybe I am off here, but If I have 3 credits, and I need both cards and credits, I think I would rather play a quality time than click twice and install this card almost every single time.


#14

Pro Contacts simply costs too much, both in terms of upfront investment and in time, to be good for a deck that wants to be aggressive. Plus, it’s another high-value resource that a stray tag can crush. As Chill84 said, I think you’re better off with bursty draws, or, worst case, a filtered draw that doesn’t cost as much tempo like Mr. Li.

But really, I’d stick with burst draw and tutoring + recursion effects as they come out.


#15

Yeah, I have no idea why Shapers needed a third Jinteki hate card in faction. Truly bizarre.

Because FFG clearly hates Jinteki.

Three Jinteki hate cards, but we dont have a good counter to Account Siphon yet.


#16

I think Pro Contacts is getting way too much hate for what it is.
… I think comparing it to MO isn’t correct, since the MU and program trashing liabilities won’t hinder aggressive running.

Well, I do think its better than Magnum Opus. But I think Opus is terrible now, and you can do a lot better with a deck full of Diesel, QTime, and burst economy cards.

Comparing Pro Contacts should be compared to using Diesels and QTime, because its a draw bonus. It makes your natural draws worth +$1. But it costs 5, and is a resource, so it forces you to care a lot about tags.

If you install pro Contacts, and draw 25 cards with it, thats pretty good. What is the alternative way to gain +24 cards?

Pro Contacts: 26 clicks = Net: +24 cards, +$20.

Play 2 Diesel, 2 QTime, and draw 12 cards: 16 clicks = Net: +24 cards, -$6. That leaves me 10 clicks to try and recover $26, which I probably cant do.

Well, that does look to be evidence for Pro Contacts having a place. It has three problems:

  1. Puts you in a big hole to start.
  2. It doesnt work well with Diesel/QTime, because if you use those to draw, you wont be using it enough to make it pay off.
  3. Tag vulnerability.

However, in a deck that doesnt use other draw cards, AND doesnt want tags, it could be decent. Its kindof like a big Underworld contacts. Its more expensive (but no link requirement), and tends to net you more like $1.5 a turn. I guess that might be okay.


#17

How much do we want a Resource Tutor nowadays? I think a lot, since so many of the resources are of the “decent-to-great value if you can get them early” variety (compromised employee, Pro Contacts, Underworld Contacts, Mr Li, etc).

One advantage that the Opus decks have is Test Run, even though that nearly always seems like a mistake these days. At least they’re getting their economy up and running quickly.

And Alex, I think what your maths analysis on Pro Contacts shows is that it has potential for days, but: like all numerical analysis it ignores game state considerations. What’s the opportunity cost of those five credits? Does it (like Test Running an Opus) signal a potentially huge tempo shift? Or can you time it with a tempo slowdown from the Corp as well?

That’s where a Contacts tutor would help a lot :).


#18

If I had a resource tutor I would just grab armitage/pawnshop if I needed money, and wyldeside/mr. li if I needed cards.


#19

I think Pro Contacts would have been a much better Anarch card actually. I really don’t like the anti synergy between it and the Shaper tutoring and card draw.


#20

I’m personally crazy about Self-Modifying Code, especially its Stimhack synergy, which is why I’d give it a 5 (over your 4).

See, with Special Order you have to first facecheck ice, then fetch the icebreaker you need, then play the icebreaker, and then finally run.

With SMC you just play it, start the run, and install the relevant icebreaker without using up any clicks.