NBN Yellow Jackets: 1st and 2nd at San Antonio regionals

@bluebird503 - I almost ran Green Level instead of Blue Level as well, but decided on the 2 Tips and 1 Celebrity Gift. Gift was definitely an all star, but with only one of them, I think 3 GLC would be more consistent.

Iā€™d also recommend keeping a one-of Shinobi (won two games for me and was one credit away from a third). You ONLY rez that thing if it kills so the bad pub is a non-issue. NBN Astros cause the runner to get desperate once you are at 4 or 5 points, which turns Shinobi on against even the best runners.

Canā€™t wait to revamp this deck for Cali Regionals! #PDX4Life

[quote=ā€œRemorhaz, post:42, topic:1310ā€]
Congrats. 2nd is awesome in what i have to imagine is one of the toughest regional fields in the US.
[/quote]Youā€™re right. The PNW has some of the best Netrunner players out there. It was such a good time!

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Blue Level Clearances will save you. Trust me, keep them in there.

Disagree. Thatā€™s why Shinobi is in there because most players donā€™t mind facechecking NBN ice all day long.

Blue Level Clearance > Green Level Clearance.

Hundreds of games played with it, BLC is the MVP of the deck. Trust me.

I am done with the deck for now, but I have yet to see a good argument for Blue Level Clearance. Do you mind presenting some evidence for why BLC is the best? I piloted a similar deck to 2nd place without them, and lacking BLC is not the reason for my 2nd place finish.

Here are my arguments for why Green Level is better, I would love to hear evidence against them.

Green Level costs less to play(1 credit vs 2)(so it is significantly bette after account siphon), and it saves you 3 influence if you are choosing to run 3 of each. 3 Influence in modern netrunner is at least 3 elis, which is arguably one of the strongest pieces of ice in the game. I havenā€™t played a corp deck without Eli since the card came out in tournament play. Sure decks have started without Eli, but they always end up with Eli by tournament time. Green Level is significantly better as a turn 1 play, allowing you to ice HQ + R&D, or HQ + Archives against sneakdoor decks, and still gain a few credits.

Drawing 2 cards can sometimes be a liability, there was a game against a player using sneakdoor that I had to instally my agendas into my scoring remote the second i drew them.

Green Level lets me choose to use the follow up clicks after getting the information from 1 additional card. I have +2 credits +1 card, and can now choose how to follow that up.

BLC is strong, but itā€™s not worth the influence.

On the Shinobi case. I think this is a matter of deck building preference/play style. Iā€™m not looking to win fringe game states/cases, etc, with very narrow cards like Shinobi. My experience with the card is that itā€™s a win more card, and I have yet to have it successfully used against me. Iā€™m sure itā€™s put in some work for others, but for my play style, Iā€™m not looking to boost my win percentages in fringe cases, Iā€™d prefer cards that are useful in every game. If it was in faction, this would be a different story, but it isnā€™t.

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Interesting. I suppose I could counter saying that Yellow Jackets was piloted and took 1st and 2nd at San Antonio and 2nd and 3rd in Tulsa! ā€¦and we ran BLC! :smile:

But you know, itā€™s not totally about BLC. AstroTrain is a thingā€¦ choo choo.

Hmmm, well Yellow Jackets just goes to show you that Eli 1.0 doesnā€™t have to be an auto-include. :wink:

Sure, GLC could be a better turn 1 play. BLC allows you to get above some R&D lock. If youā€™re not icing Archives (which appeared to be the case for you) then yes Sneakdoor can give you some problems.

Shinboi gives the deck some teeth. The timing is key for when to rez this card and has flatlined multiple players in both San Antonio and Tulsa (some of which were on Turn 1) because people are not afraid to face-check ice when playing against NBN.

GLC is efficient, but itā€™s not worth the card slot. With all of the corporate economy options out right now, I want something much more high impact for my card slots, and BLC is quite literally a bigger GLC. Itā€™s been noted that the deck makes money easily but spends it really fast, blcā€™s pro contacts click is a significant help with this. Also, for siphon recovery, credit, green level credit puts you back into siphon range, whereas gaining into blue level and then a turn of blc + likely an econ card since itā€™s been 4 draws is very strong for bouncing back.

From the general tone I get the feeling you havenā€™t tried the blue levels, because in play it has been the most powerful card in the deck, and Iā€™d rather blue level any turn of the game unless iā€™m flooded first turn.

The upside of the glc would be adding eli. I can live without the elis, between e3 making a comeback, or decks built to not care about clicking through an eli (siphon anarch), eli isnā€™t as great as he once was, and should morning star become a thing he gets even worse. weā€™re good on taxing ice, and youā€™re a lot less likely to get siphoned if you can put something other than an eli on hq.

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Regarding Shinobi, I guess for my influence Iā€™d rather have something I can always rez and have it do something useful for me. Viktor 2.0 comes to mind. As Bluebird says, though, thatā€™s probably a playstyle thing. Was something replacing Shinobi at first before you splashed it in during testing? Just seems so corner case and definitely a ā€œwin moreā€ card.

ā€˜Win Moreā€™ is only a bad thing in games with snowballing mechanics. Most of the ā€˜Win Moreā€™ cards in netrunner tend to be some of the strongest cards in the game, Astroscript, RDI and Desperado would be considered ā€˜Win Moreā€™ in most card games. The game state doesnā€™t snowball, so any card that does it for you is very strong. I believe thereā€™s an old alexfrog article on the site if you want to read into it more, but win more is good in netrunner.

I was looking for sentries above mimic, that lowered it down to a few cards, but flare got blown out by knight, I wasnā€™t running enough astro fodder, and ichi (both) wound up being super awkward early on, while shinobi is super strong there.

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Shinobi, especially outside of Jinteki, is surely a ā€˜win nowā€™ card, not win more. You can leverage an economic avantage to an instant victory, whatā€™s not to like? In Making News, the economic advantage required isnā€™t huge. If it were in all NBN decks, it wouldnā€™t be that potent, but as a surprise Iā€™m convinced youā€™ll pick up flatlines against a lot of players. I think this is exacerbated by the presence of Astroscript, maybe I overrate the astrotrain, but I want to run every installed card vs. NBN, which means Iā€™m more likely to be running without a huge bank.

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I just hope I donā€™t have to deal with this deck in Wisconsin, it looked like a bunch of players in Tulsa were playing it (on the TC stream).

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In my experience Shinobi is very often not a Win More. Itā€™s a Win Now. One game at the Seattle Regional I was waaaaaay behind on board state in this early game, which just caused the runner to be more and more aggressive (get as many points as you can before I can rez my shit). He hit a Shinobi and died. I donā€™t think he really made a mistake and Shinobi allowed me to win quick without having to crawl back.

I agree, I havenā€™t heard any argument by BLC is better from an analytical point of view, just anecdotal evidence. Anecdotally, my 2 Anonymous Tips and 1 Celebrity Gift worked great over 10 games at Seattle Regionals, but I canā€™t make a great case for it when looking at the numbers (biggest point being less consistency with two different types of cards out of the three).

@bluebird503ā€™s argument for why GLCs are better than Blue are very convincing. Just saying ā€œTrust me, itā€™s better!ā€ isnā€™t really an argument.

Iā€™m also done with this deck for now and will be running a purple Jinteki for nor cal regionals. Although, I will be testing an updated version of this with the new NBN identity as well.

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My analysis on BLC vs GLC is that GLC nets you 3 clicks of activity for a card and 1 click, BLC nets you 5 clicks of activity for a card and 2 clicks. When deck space is tight simply the magnitude of effect of the card makes it superior. In my opinion itā€™s worth a close look. I think the advocates of BLC are saying ā€˜Try it, itā€™s better!ā€™ Which is quite different to ā€˜Trust me, itā€™s better!ā€™ and I think is worth doing.

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Totally fair on that point.

Thanks for the insight guys.

I understand the draw to have extremely efficient cards like BLC, there is no arguing that as far as for that one card slot, it does itā€™s job much better than GLC. Master Air, you are comparing the 3 clicks of activity to the BLC 5 clicks of activity, but if you choose to click for a credit or a card your only 1 click short on activity on the GLC. Sometimes you might not even want that extra card/credit, and can use the hedge fund you just drew or whatever as well as installing a upgrade/etc. . However, having your influence tied to BLC and Shinobi makes the overall power level/distribution of your influence weaker throughout the deck. I personally have tried BLC, and found that the difference was not as profound as you guys are making it out to be(I havenā€™t tried the Shinobi at all, and probably wonā€™t).

I think again if you look at deckbuilding, spreading the power level/influence of cards will make your deck more efficient. I want my cards to be all be great usually. Drawing 1 eli compared to drawing 1 wall of static is actually a fairly big difference in my book, for the cost of that 1 influence.

As far as E3 feedbacks etc, I havenā€™t ran into any one that installed it(iā€™m only playing eli, no other bioroids) at either of the pacific northwest regionals, so I guess the meta hasnā€™t shifted the same way here. E3 isnā€™t much of a concern, if someone wants to take the time to install that against me I think Iā€™d probably be ok with it.

We have lots of Andy players and then mixtures of everything else. I will probably be going to Californiaā€™s regionals so Iā€™m curious to see what the meta will be like since there will be very few from the pacific northwest going down, it will be my first tournament out of ā€œOurā€ meta, I am interested in how I will fare outside of my 'comfort" zone. I think only me and JohnnyCreations also posting in this thread is going, I donā€™t know about any of the Washington players.

Still disagree completely on Shinobi, as far as Iā€™m concerned itā€™s still a win more. Again, this is probably all just deck building differences. The way I look at it, (Iā€™m probably just echoing myself here) If your in a position to rez shinobi and win, you were likely going to win that game anyways(except for a few fringe cases where, you are estatic to be using your deck slot for Shinobi cause it just gave you a free win). Either your miles ahead, or you have a skill advantage. I donā€™t think Shinobi is as consistent at what it does as any of the cards mentioned. Desperado and R&D and Astro all give your deck extremely valuable reach and longevity(regardless of matchup), and I would never not want to see a single one of those cards. Desperado is so good that having the other 2 be dead draws is just not a problem . Face down, unknown ice do have some influence on the flow of the game as far as runner fearing it, but otherwise itā€™s not doing much. A Guard can serve a similar purpose if your just never going to rez it.

I wouldnā€™t be shocked if a single scorch in NBN would grant comparable scenarios against tag floaters etc. I think they are fairly comparable. You have a surprise factor, free wins, single deck slot for a lot of influence that is not part of your ā€œmainā€ strategy. The card does have merit, but when Iā€™m playing against really good players over a LOT of games of netrunner(I played 18 games of Netrunner at regionals on Saturday). Every card needs to be live imo, and I just wouldnā€™t be including Shinobi. Itā€™s almost always been a liability when Iā€™ve seen it be rezzed :(.

The difference being that shinobi tends to be live every game Iā€™ve drawn it. Iā€™ve yet to have the money to rez it, and not rez it profitably. Even in the games where it doesnā€™t kill, it usually costs them a large chunk of money and some cards, and you are left with a high strength etr sentry with multiple subroutines. Scorched just rots in your hand.

On your earlier paragraphs you mention that any time you flatline with a shinobi is a game you would have won anyway, but between people going low on cards to keep up with nbn/get around sweeps week, and how much it costs to trash sansan/score napd, shinobi gets a LOT of windows. On top of that, a lot of nbn games that seem to be in the bag can be lost in the span of a turn to R&D dig since youā€™re fairly agenda dense. One bad makerā€™s eye can be the game, so ending it before that option comes up can be a big deal.

Also, you seem to have the impression that it sits unrezzed, not doing anything for most of the game. If you have the money, with rare exception, itā€™s getting flipped. Runners donā€™t have the time to durdle and money up against nbn, and you have a lot of things for them to spend the money on. They wonā€™t check at 0 credits if theyā€™re any good/not desperate, but you can easily get the money to flatline them at 4 credits, especially if they arenā€™t at 5 cards, and if it doesnā€™t flatline, crippling them is often enough to put you so far ahead that you actually have the game won.

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I think @bluebird503 is saying this because thatā€™s my rule when running Shinobi in NBN. Sometimes I will rez in the late game when Iā€™m at match point (slows then down enough for me to push out the last 2 or 3 points), but I would personally never rez Shinobi in the early game if I had the credits. That bad pub is killer, yo.

Anyway, we are beating a dead horse on the BLC and Shinobi issues. More people should try out their own versions and report here!

I would if it won me the game on Turn 1 like it did in Tulsa or turn 2 in San Antonio.

:slight_smile:

Haha. Yeah, a Turn 2 kill gave me Top 8 in Seattle. I meant I wonā€™t rez in the early game unless it will kill. :smile:

Do you have your deck posted anywhere? Iā€™d love to see what you did.