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Official Rules Question Thread


#4335

Quick confirmation that this is a deliberate change:

Keep your spare tokens handy for those hard to remember hidden information.

UPDATE: The Rules Reference has the up-to-date definition of derived information:

Derived Information
Derived information is any information about the game, game state, or cards one or more players has learned through the process of deduction. This includes card that has been chosen for Femme Fatale, a card hosted on another card, etc.

Derived information may be marked with the use of a token or other indicator so that players remember the information. A player cannot misrepresent derived information or hide the open information necessary to discover derived information. Until a revealed card enters a hidden or randomized zone such as HQ or R&D, then it is still uniquely identifiable and considered to be derived information.
(RR1.0, pp.15-16)

So tracking cards in R&D (Indexing), etc. is not permitted.


#4336

Thanks for clearing up my follow-up question (has the corp drawn through R&D Lock yet?) before I even asked it!

I’m glad to know that this was a deliberate change to the game, and not me (and a judge) misinterpreting this earlier in my netrunning career.


#4337

I’m not sure that’s the case, it says enters a hidden or randomized zone. The cards you saw with Indexing didn’t ENTER R&D, they started out in there. They would stop being trackable when they leave R&D and enter HQ. (unless HQ has 0 cards in it so you know exactly what the corp drew, but that’s their problem) If you weren’t allowed to keep track of cards you yourself rearranged then your opponent would be able to call a judge as soon as you played Indexing! :stuck_out_tongue:


#4338

Wait so you no longer have to play the memory game vs asset spam? Like it just works to just say “I want to run the Jeeves server that I ran last turn”?


#4339

I agree that the wording still leaves it confusing, but when I asked @jakodrako he confirmed that’s how it works:

I’m not going to keep faulting their wording (re: “into”), because clear wording hasn’t really been their forte, since “R&D” is specifically called out as a exception.


#4340

Sort of, you can use an indicator to help you remember.


#4341

Okay well hopefully my opponents will be chill and play the way cool people play (not forcing you into the memory game) so that I don’t have to bother


#4342

Oh interesting! But I guess all that means is no note-taking, right? You’re still allowed to keep track in your head?


#4343

“Judge! My opponent is clearly remembering things. Get the Cerebral Overwriter!”


#4344

Ahhhh okay I see what you are saying.

Loki gains “resolve a sub on another ice”

Corp chooses Ravana sub of “resolve a sub on another ice”

Corp chooses Loki “etr unless shuffle”

Yes this is fine.


#4345

Also, I hadn’t considered that interpretation of the derived information ruling. I will confer with Boggs on that, it seems like an important distinction.


#4346

Thanks for looking into this. It seems that there has been a deliberate change to eliminate the memory skill requirement in Netrunner, which I’m fine with since it may be helpful to new players. But, I think it needs to be consistent even within hidden zones (as long as it cannot be randomized at will).

But, maybe I’m reading too much into this rule change.


#4347

Does that means you’re allowed to put cents on non r&d/hq cards you accessed / expose?

(eg clic run a remote with maw, found an unrezzed upgrade, don’t trash, corp turn install something there, then runner turn, can’t remember which card I accessed but want to access the upgrade there first).

I don’t like that change. Due to crap memory, I’m warning all my future opponents that I will systematically do this and I’m sure I’m not alone.


#4348

You claim to have crap memory, but dislike a change that makes you have to memorize less?


#4349

Yes, why not ?

It’s not because I’m this or that that I can’t recognize a “bad” decision in gamedesign ?
(for information, just to tell I’m not the usual game consumer, I just won a small concourse of gamedesign last month)

If me or my opponent is allowed to take notes with markers, this will slow down the game, because paper & pen notes or markers notes are basically the same (you can use alphabet counters, so they will have to draw a line between “bad” counters and “good” counters).

Can I make piles of counter to track the opponent money ? According to this, opponent’s budget is public so yes I could.

This is a nerf to bluff. I’m a bad bluffer but that doesn’t change a good decision for me is not a bad decision (in my opinion of course) for the game.

This is made for 2 cards : Maw on HQ, and FF. I would have change FF’s text with core rotation and ruled Maw and voila. Taking notes is a huge can of worms. I would forbid dice & make netrunner use the same things you can have access in competitive poker. Not sure my advice please many players anyway.


#4350

[quote=“Syntax, post:4347, topic:1437, full:true”](eg clic run a remote with maw, found an unrezzed upgrade, don’t trash, corp turn install something there, then runner turn, can’t remember which card I accessed but want to access the upgrade there first).
[/quote]

My understanding was that the corp has always been required to make clear which card is the new card and which is the old card when installing a new one – they could never obscure which is which.


#4351

In the “old rules”, this meant the corp could not take the installed card and the non-installed card, shuffle these and put it in the remote.

In the “new rules”, the corp is to remember for the runner what card he accessed, and tell hum if the runner asks.


#4352

I don’t think so – the corp’s activity hasn’t changed. They need to make it clear which is the old card and which is the new one when they install. Same as the old rules. They can’t hide or obscure (shuffle) which card was there before. But once they’re installed, that’s up to the runner to remember, which they can (and this is the new part?) do with a token. I think.


#4353

I can’t think of a time when I or any of my opponents would have refused to identify which was the new card, or remind the runner which server was the new server if they asked versus, say, and asset-heavy deck. That’s not to say that I or my opponents haven’t forgotten and bone-headedly run a server they’d already seen or accessed the old card first!

You straight up shouldn’t be required to remember that sort of information or mark it with a token or whatever. It creates no new or interesting game states.


#4354

I replied because of this :

This means that if instal then run then instal happenned 10 turns ago, you have to remember things for the runner that you wouldn’t mind without this rule… (or else you would be hidding an information that was public 10 turns ago). :frowning:

I think the runner is responsable for this situation. The corp install stuff, and move on. If I run against 1000 cut PE, I should’t require the corp guy to remind that I ran on this snare or not 4 turns ago, just because this prevent me from accusing him of hiding information . The corp can’t remember that since he should have installed 8 more assets since then.

If I headplant into the same snare I did not mind trashing 5 turns ago, then I only should be worried against me, and me alone :frowning: