Mass Install has been bugging me ever since I counted the number of cards I need to install in a power turn - it’s a toss-up between Amped-Up and MI.
Amped-Up is riskier because it’ll hit one of your programs (and thus is only usable if you either run hand size increase and like to gamble, or have Clone Chips to spare), but is more universally usable. Mass Install on the other hand is literally single-purpose, but does the same thing in this particular scenario while not inflicting Brain Damage.
In a Progenitor version I think you definitely prefer the Mass Install, especially if you also run Breeding Grounds - that way, you can Mass Install a Progenitor with an Imp and have free Imping for life
If you’ve all the clone chips, they can save you a click. You can also pre-install a lot of cards in a power-turn: it’s basically click Incubator onto Hivemind, run.
In my testing, the inconsistent part was actually progenitor and/or breeding ground. Djinn finds all the other good stuff.
The other problem is facechecking with fat Incubators or Hivemind’s lying around. They’re not cheap viruses to lose (or worse, a Djinn hosting things).
This is the part that really makes me want to play Fester, btw. Makes it so much harder to play around the power turn even if you see it coming.
This I’m trying to solve by running ridiculous amounts of card draw - think Inject, IHW and QT. QT is neat in that it also enables Mass Install pretty well. Due to all the card slots however, the deck is now short on a lot of other things I’d be more comfortable having. How to solve that, I don’t know yet.
Presumably “fat Incubator” and “Hivemind” indicate midgame. By that point, shouldn’t you have an insta-parasite lying around, ready to kill anything that could trash your shit?
It’s not really that vulnerable to purging though.
I have Medium and Incubator on board, how often are you going to purge?
Let Incubator tick up to 2 or 3, then drop Hivemind and Parasite/Darwin your way into RnD. Sure you can preemptively purge to keep Incubator small, but I’m perfectly happy letting you do that.
The above scenario is exactly why I don’t think Breeding Ground/Progenitus is necessary. They purge, you continue on your merry way while Incubator ticks up again.
So I think I’ve definitely convinced myself Djinn is the better option. I would love to fit a 2nd Incubator in there, but I really don’t know what to cut.
Actually, there’s no reason this should be Noise, and maybe it even shouldn’t be. If you’re only installing a few key viruses once, that’s very different to trickling them out all game long. Quetzal may even be a better choice as you start with a breaker and stop the corp just building a remote and winning asap.
I think most corps can take the -2 cr swing though. Easily in many cases.
Inject, sadly, trashes Progenitors and Djinns, which aren’t viruses and so are more awkward to recur. You also need the money to install all the things.
Maybe, but that doesn’t deal with Grim, constellation ice, Archer, etc. You can D4v1d through it, but now there’s a new piece to the puzzle. Or you load up Hivemind first, but now you’ve blown your power turn facechecking ice.
I think Incubator plus a deck that has heavy pressure from the start, plus Virus Breeding Ground and Parasite (sweet against Blue Sun’s otherwise difficult to parasite ice, I should add) might work. So why not a shell like:
Quetzal: Free Spirit (First Contact)
Event (12)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
3x Retrieval Run (Future Proof)
3x Inject (Up and Over)
3x I’ve Had Worse (Order and Chaos)
Hardware (7)
2x The Personal Touch (Core Set) ••••
2x e3 Feedback Implants (Trace Amount) ••••
3x Clone Chip (Creation and Control) ••••• •
Resource (3)
3x Virus Breeding Ground (Order and Chaos)
Program (17)
3x Medium (Core Set)
3x Parasite (Core Set)
3x Nerve Agent (Cyber Exodus)
2x D4v1d (The Spaces Between)
3x Incubator (The Source)
3x Progenitor (Order and Chaos)
14 influence spent (maximum 15)
45 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Order and Chaos
Can this be massaged (i.e. drop all the silly 3x into some economy) into something playable that presents an early game assault followed by late game power digs?
This feels like way too setup-intensive and expensive for seeing 5 cards, though. I mean, you need Hivemind, Medium and Incubator (9 credits, 3 of which you’re paying for each repeat of the trick) and 3 installs to see something only marginally better than a Maker’s Eye.
If it’s a game-wrapper, or Demo Run / Showing Off is involved, it might make sense. But for regular pressure, I’d be wary of the costs.
How so? Hivemind’s counters pretend they’re on Parasites as well, insta-killing all of the above.
Your list looks intriguing though, I’ll play with it and see what I can come up with.
I just meant it seems a shame to waste a valuable power turn scoping out the ice. But you can’t pressure unless you do that, or you risk losing your board state.
You are right, I get 3 accesses that turn. How about next turn?
If I got into RnD with Parasites, the corp can’t even purge because then I’d just take my free Medium runs.
While I agree it is certainly setup intensive, there is something to be said about having a proactive game plan. The corp plays around you, not the other way around.Should they try to race you, you have a pretty good shot at just nuking RnD and getting there, even past 2 ice.
If they slow down and react to your pressure, that is also good because you now have more time to set up your inevitable massive turn. Also, if it’s your hail mary run, you can burn Clone Chips and it is no longer just a Maker’s Eye.
@Dragar: Yes, it only really makes sense out of Noise because without the mill to pressure, it’s far too slow to set this up.
It feels very vulnerable to running into something big and/or Lotus Field shaped unless Incubator gets to huge levels. Stimhack/Crypsis might be better?
I’m not so certain about it. This is me asking for your revision of my rationale:
Noise needs to draw and install cheap stuff for the mill to be real. The combo pieces we need here are too expensive to fill that role. So, in a way, unless we get mill pieces that work into our combo here, it’s actually slowing us down even further
Valencia gets free remote pressure via Blackmail while setting this up - the plan would be to use the threat of Blackmail just long enough to get your pieces together, then kick into overdrive
Ed helps the plan by threatening HQ, which is a server we’re not really interested in… presumably leading to a slowdown in the corp’s plan
Quetzal gets early pressure in the form of nullifying barriers, thus again slowing the corp down.
Reina and Whiz don’t seem well-suited for the plan
All my previous attempts at OTK involve Vamp and Overmind. Eater is a lot better than Overmind for landing the Vamp and now we have Amped Up for bonus clicks. What about this:
OTK
Quetzal: Free Spirit (First Contact)
Event (23)
3x Amped Up (Order and Chaos)
2x Day Job (Order and Chaos)
2x Demolition Run (Core Set)
3x I’ve Had Worse (Order and Chaos)
1x Lucky Find (Double Time) ••
2x Mass Install (Honor and Profit)
2x Quality Time (Humanity’s Shadow) ••
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
3x Surge (Humanity’s Shadow)
2x Vamp (Trace Amount)
The way I see it, Noise is getting free accesses by playing cards that it wants to be playing anyway.Each Datasucker/Imp you play is part of your game plan and nets you a free access. Each Cache is a free access.You may never actually mill them out, but you are still getting a benefit by forcing the corp to react.
The reason playing these cards outside of Noise does not make sense is because you aren’t getting that free pressure. Something like Valencia plays completely differently and should be built differently (Blackmail/Eater/Keyhole with cutlery).
Ed/Quetzal/Reina/Whiz are all marginal (my opinion) benefits in that they don’t change the game the way Noise and Valencia do. They are similar to Andy in that they can be built pretty similarly as good stuff decks.
Isn’t this somewhat circular logic, though? If I’m going for a super-deep RnD dig (with a possible endgame of just blowing the whole thing right the fuck up with a Demo Run), I don’t need Imps. If I’m going to waltz through ICE because Hivemind + Darwin at 8, with insta-speed STR 8+ parasites, why do I need Datasuckers*? Without the mill, surely there’re better economic options than Cache, especially for the influence? tl;dr - I’m not so sure that “I want to be playing those cards anyway”, given this particular plan.
Yes, the deck will definitely play different than Noise, but that’s sort of my point here - I need a couple high-impact, high-cost viruses, not spam stuff all day long. This decreases the amount of free pseudo-accesses from mill, and starts making the other ID options look a lot more appealing…
*now, I’m not saying I won’t run them, just that they don’t really figure into the primary plan and so they’re no longer an automatic 3-of
Noise decks walk a very fine line between not milling/R&D digging/HQ Imping enough to win if the corp doesn’t respond, and outright losing if the corp rushes agendas behind a Lotus Field or Wraparound or something. I think if you dilute this engine with a bunch of lategame pieces, you’ll probably fail to exert enough overall pressure that the corp can score out and win.
Noise alone doesn’t change the game, it’s also having a deck full of cheap, often profitable viruses that does it. That’s not the game plan we’re looking at with Hivemind/Incubator shenanigans.
Imp isn’t just for RnD though, otherwise Demo Run would be strictly better. Imp is HQ pressure and asset denial. Getting a free access in addition to that is the reason why Noise with Imp is better than Whizz with Demo Run.
Similarly, Datasucker is useless in your Hivemind turn, but they’re doing work the rest of the game as Parasite support. Cache is just 3 influence, so I’m not sure you can find a better econ option for a similar price. Again, the free access on top is what makes it worth playing rather than just an Easy Mark.
The point I’m trying to make is that if you’re looking just a super deep RnD dig, there are cards that do this better and you can build a different deck. What Noise offers is the chance to set up a deep RnD dig, OR a full HQ group access, OR mill and run Archives, while denying asset econ and attacking your ICE. The important thing is that you’re presenting them with forks all game long while you set up for your big turn, rather than focus entirely on the setup and executing it.
