Random HQ accesses: Not so Random

iirc, some official document clearly states that tools to produce randomness are allowed at tournaments. But I am not sure.

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HQ access is supposed to be random. You’re saying it’s NOT cheating if you stack your HQ in an advantageous fashion, but players who try to keep the access random are not playing by the rules? :scream:

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@flaw @Korrigan In fact, dices are not forbidden by the rules (neither JMT) :

“Randomization
Players can use dice or other external aids to randomize results,
provided the randomization does not impede the flow of the game. Players
cannot force other players to use external aids when randomizing. A
shuffle from the Corp and a subsequent choice by the Runner is enough to
fulfill the requirements of randomness when accessing HQ.”

http://netrunnerdb.com/en/rules#tr21

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Not shuffling at all is clearly not shuffling enough. :stuck_out_tongue:

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In this case I think he was referring to your hypothetical case of asking to shuffle for us, rather than simply cutting. But yeah, if a player doesn’t shuffle their deck before a game or their HQ before an access, I say you’re well within your rights to ask for that shuffle. Just don’t assume I’m ok with your grubby, clutching, card-and-sleeve-marking mitts doing the shuffling :smiley: (speaking generally ofc, not about anyone in particular!)

I know it’s generally fine, and 99.999% of the time people aren’t going to do anything to my cards or sleeves, but I don’t think your lizard brain is entirely wrong. If I’ve clearly shuffled, and you feel that’s so inadequate that a simple 4-part cut won’t fix it, then yes, you are saying I’m cheating!

Not that i’m going to confront you about it or make a big deal in person, but, just a heads up to the “always shuffle your opponents decks people:” you are rude and I wish I didn’t have to play with you.

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some type of actual ruling or “spirit of the game” input from the head man would be nice.

Without that it’s all just chatter.

I did explicitly state:

i.e. the corp didn’t shuffle and doesn’t intend to shuffle.

It’s not like there’s a rule required the corp to randomize their hand before the runner selects a card. If the runner wants, they can randomize selection via die roll, but there is no reason for the runner to shuffle the corp hand or require the corp to do so.

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Is asking to shuffle as Runner worse than stacking your hand as Corp?

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no, I think it’s different.

Hand stacking is certainly poor sporstmanship (taking advantage of your opponents ignorance of card-game psychology) and should be discouraged in any tournament setting, but it can be good fun in a casual setting if both players agree to it. Asking (and please read here: what you would actually doing is accusing and demanding ) to shuffle an opponents’ cards for them is both a little disrespectful and completely unnecessary, given that the alternative of random number selection (or simply asking them to shuffle their hand face down) is ridiculously easy and unobtrusive.

TLDR; don’t touch my shit! (ok, I’m backing off from this thread, my OCD w/r/t my cards is derailing…)

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Yes!

The runner can always select randomly, 100% negating any corp “stacking” (though that word seems inappropriate here given the nature of random access opposed to drawing the top card of a deck). The corp switching the order of cards in their hand has literally no effect on a runner who desires a truly random access. Clearly, the burden for access randomization lies on the runner; it’s not like the corp is tucking cards up their sleeve.

Your opponent has the right to shuffle your cards instead of cutting when presented before the game. You will have to deal with that. As far as asking to shuffle your hand, I have never seen or heard of such a thing.

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But if my opponent doesn’t trust me to shuffle my cards, what happens if I don’t trust him to shuffle either, and shuffle them after he’s shuffled them? Don’t we end up in an endless loop? :stuck_out_tongue:

If he’s shuffling without looking at your cards, in a respectful manner and with a recognizable shuffling method (IE nothing skeezy like that guy at the big MTG tournament got busted for), then you’re just being an ass by "not trusting their shuffle. And it makes you sound like a cheater.

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Certainly! Although many Corp players (myself included) choose to help out by shuffling and presenting facedown.

However, it seems to me that shuffling the Corp’s hand and then flipping one card is an equally valid way for the Runner to randomize the access. It’s not done in ANR, but in principle I don’t see how it’s any different when considered in a vacuum free of social context – i.e. if doing so were not considered an implicit accusation, and if it were considered generally OK to handle your opponent’s cards.

Of course, we do have both of those conventions in ANR; what I’m curious about is whether the negative reaction to this idea (the Runner asking to shuffle HQ prior to access if the Corp declines to shuffle it themselves) derives from those conventions or from some underlying difference between that and using a die. I think it’s the former.

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I agree, and I do deal with that, without complaint (un-specific, non-personal comments months later on a forum post notwithstanding :smiley: ).

The topic at hand, however, was someone in this thread mentioning they would ask to shuffle the corps hand themselves before selecting a random access (rather than the much more courteous and equally random methods of rolling a dice or reqesting a face-down shuffle of the hand by the corp).

@Ajar I really didn’t mean to make this so personal! I recognize that your heart was in the right place (and that maybe I still have some misplaced bottled rage from too many years playing MtG…). I agree that it would be perfectly fair to do it that way, just wanted to give you a heads up that not everyone would appreciate that request, however reasonable.

The big problem with the runner requesting to personally shuffle the corp’s HQ is that there’s always a risk to flip up a card (or two) during the shuffle. It’s a much bigger deal to know about a card that’s in HQ right now which you shouldn’t know about than to know about a card somewhere in the 49.

Up til now I occasionally shuffle my opponent’s deck, occasionally just cut it. It’s a habit coming from MtG; I don’t base whether I shuffle at all on whether I thought my opponent shuffled enough or anything like that. But this weekend I accidentally flipped up an ash when shuffling my opponent’s NEH deck and it gave me an advantage during the game I shouldn’t have had. I felt bad, didn’t say anything, and then felt worse.

So on further reflection, I’m switching into the don’t-shuffle camp. Sure you can say you always look up and to the other side when handling your opponent’s deck, but in the end it’s always possible to drop a card, and when you drop a card it’s pure reflex to look down at it before picking it up. Gonna cut only from now on.

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I’ll add to the chorus of using dice over picking. I’d also suggest using a d12 and/or a d10. Use the d10 for 5 card hands. The d12 can be used for 2,3,4, and 6 card hands using division or modulus (remainder).

Someone here mentioned using the binary code of three coins/chits to determine your access, try that one, has to beat taking your ugly D10/D12 to a tournament!

ANR is the 2nd card game (CCG/LCG) I’ve ever really dived into, but I have to think you only see this type of resolution to a question in an ANR forum haha.

I salute you sir.