Rebirth discussion

Can you lend me your brain?

Maybe my brain is wiped out after a long day of store champs, but this doesnā€™t seem right at all. 1 copy of Rebirth must be either in the 9 cards in hand, or the 36 in deck. With no mulligan, isnā€™t it a straight 1/5 (20% chance) that itā€™s in the former category?.

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I think you are right there. Also corroborated by this method of calculating it
1- choose(44,9)/choose(45,9) = 0.2

(1 - probability of not getting rebirth in hand).

eta: or this is probably what Corence was trying to do: choose(44,8)/choose(45,9) = 0.2

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I hate this card. Donā€™t get me wrong, I donā€™t think itā€™s powerful in any way but even thinking about printing such a card is just awful, completly invalidates the core concept of the game.

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Design space unfortunately, is meant to be explored. In some cases you get a card like Rebirth which is reminiscent of the cycle of wishes from M:tGā€™s Judgment set from Odyssey block or you get a heaping mistake like they did with the Dredge mechanic from Ravnica: City of Guilds. Throw in the Time Spiral block and you have created the scourge of eternal formats.

Surprised you didnā€™t complain about the restrictions in design space based on the fact that a card like Power Shutdown exists.

Can I point you to this interesting thread, sir? :wink: Flip identities, mini-factions, 6-per-deck, alliances; (at what point) has A:NR ā€œjumped the sharkā€?

Maybe I should add ā€˜Rebirthingā€™ to the thread title too, but itā€™s already too long as it isā€¦

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20% is right. And 36% if you always mulligan for it.

Itā€™s a good card, but I donā€™t think itā€™s worth that much in Shaper or Anarch. Unreliable, takes influence, not that many strong IDs if you draw it late.

For Andromeda, I imagine itā€™ll be auto-include.

Why would I complain about PS. Itā€™s a good card. Rebirth is more likely to be comparable, at least from the brainfart level to MTG ante cards. It compromises the knowledge of deck archetypes and meta knowledge.

Having a big difference between having interesting card design and awkward card design that means you need to bring every ID ever printed with you when you play Netrunner. The concept of ā€œWishā€ cards in Magic is, if Iā€™m not mistaken, that you get a card from your sideboard, something you have with you anyway and, indeed, something you expect to take cards out of to put in your deck.

I donā€™t consider Rebirth good card design and it has all of the hallmarks of bad design:

  • Limit 1 per deck

  • Requires you to bring a stack of IDs with you

  • Doesnā€™t open up any new strategies or deckbuilding challenges or anything, you just put it in Andy and Val without thinking or with regard to the rest of your deck

  • Violates the key concept of ā€œyou build your deck for an ID and you play that ID the whole gameā€

Thereā€™s a lot of card design that could be explored without being Rebirth. There is some design space you just should not explore for various reasons, and I think itā€™s reasonable to say that Rebirth probably fits that section of design space.

Either way, itā€™s printed now, and itā€™s not going to break the game, but Iā€™d rather it wasnā€™t printed.

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Youā€™re exaggerating about how bad of a card Rebirth is. You donā€™t have to bring a stack of IDs with it. Unless youā€™re just having fun, when you build a deck, there will be what 3? other IDs youā€™d switch to. If I want Rebirth to be useful, I need to build a deck that will function in my original ID and any IDs I plan to switch to. From Andy, who will I Rebirth into? Gabe? Iain? Leela? Geist requires building around. Also being able to identify which ID to switch to, at what time will often be a high skill decision.

Itā€™s wrong to build an ID with the intention of switching into one or two IDs every game, and though, yeah, youā€™re right in that Andy will usually just go into Gabe, Iain or Leela based on board state. Silhouette can be an option vs PE and Fisk is good if they have exactly 1 card left in deck. Hell, Ken is good if you have three Dirty Laundries and two Siphons in hand and think that itā€™s right.

Youā€™re right in that you wonā€™t be switching between them all equally, but itā€™s practically strictly wrong (aside from an Andy deck with literally no trash effects not bringing Geist) to not bring every ID you own. Not bringing IDs actively reduces the number of options you have (for no upside) and even if theyā€™re (very usually) bad options it is incorrect not to have them as options at your disposal because thereā€™s no downside to bringing them, only potential upside. Even if you should go into Leela 2/3rds of the time, it would be incorrect to just bring Leela as an Andy deck with Rebirth in it (and if you do that, youā€™re probably misusing Rebirth anyway). Rebirth isnā€™t a way to get an Andy hand as Leela, itā€™s a way for Andy to sometimes switch into an ID thatā€™s better than she is right then.

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There will be at most 15 IDs per faction. Bringing 60 cards instead of 46 for your runner deck is unlikely to break your bag, or stop your deck fitting in your case. I think itā€™s a neat card, itā€™s powerful and flexible and means the IDs that are broken because they have insufficient influence become cards again.

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Complaining about having to bring IDs is one of the nitpickiest reasons to not play a card. This card is going to offer a chance to throw the Corp off their feet and surprise them. This can help to make runners more powerful and allow for more different kinds of decks. The real power could be in the influence, especially with the most wanted list. Professor/Kit with Morning star, parasite, clone chips, etc.

Also claiming that rebirth violates key concepts just sounds like I canā€™t think of a reason I donā€™t like this card but I want it to sound serious. Itā€™s not going to break the game but it will have strong potential

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Imagine using Deja Vu on Rebirth. shudder.

You know itā€™s removed from the game after use, right?

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Yeah, limit one per deck is always a problem. In this case it makes more sense in that having three would make it easy to build around and broken, but some limit 1 per decks are just powerful cards that they want you to autoinclude one of. (Path of Need from Lotr)

Oh okay.

But how will TOs know which is really your real identity? You could, in theory play an Andromeda deck, but switch to Gabe when a Haarpschord Lo-ICE deck is next. And the TOs would think the spare identities are just for rebirth. At the store and regional level, this isnā€™t really a problem. But what about the untelevised matches at Nationals and Worlds?

If Haarpsichord feller feels a little suprised in your confidence in building a Stealth Rig without more Drug Dealers as Gabe, he might call a judge for a deckcheck. And if he Traffic Accidents you and sees Rebirth in your discard pile as Gabe, he might call a judge for a deckcheck. And drawing the Rebirth is now a brain damage, because if you let Haarpy fellow look through your discard pile to see how many siphons are left and notices a Rebirth in Gabe, he might call for a deckcheck.
I guess some of those are eliminated if Rebirth actually proves so strong that you can play it in Gabe (and playing Gabe over Andromeda remains plausible in spite of Rebirth really proving so strong). Thereā€™s still a missing Sneakdoor Beta, signature Faust rig, a lot of tells about the decklist that might make the opponent suspicious about the decklist and ask for a deckcheck.

Thereā€™s a lot of brave for this particular cheat, there are many more cheats Iā€™m more concerned about that require far less bravery, like bottoming RPā€™s 1 of Fetal AI with Maya because you donā€™t wanna deal with it right now and classic installing agendas as archives ICE.

All that said, there is no harm and only upside in a rule stating that your default ID be sleeved one way and all backup IDs sleeved a specific other, matching way.

Iā€™m going to play Shaper, not actually run Rebirth, and sleeve up only Exile and Nasir and set them out in armā€™s reach for every game just so my opponents wonder what the hell Iā€™m up to.

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Logos Iain into Gabe would be nice !