Recurring Credits and Clickless Runner Econ

No you don’t. It’s on your playmat. My only suggestion to you is to play the Hotels again until you realize you were wrong ;D

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Not trying to argue for the sake of argument, I just noticed that in some of my Leela builds, Earthrise just felt wrong (as in, I was always thinking “God, I wish this were Li instead”), and I’ve put some thought into why exactly that is. The common trait those builds seemed to share was that they had cards that could be complete blowouts when timed right, and that I’d be missing something fierce if I were to discard them. Looking over the Leela thread, I don’t seem to be the only one having that experience.

Oh, and as far as taxing-by-cards matchups go: I quite enjoyed being able to configure my hand with mostly unneeded cards in anticipation of large hits (which is something Li does better than Hotel does), as well as digging for a FF/Plascrete (and later some permanent econ to fuel the former). In those matchups with an Earthrise, I still hard-drew quite a bit anyway, so the Hotel’s impact in that regard was less obvious, at least instinctively.

Completely agreed that with this particular deck Earthrise is probably the correct choice (though @Nordrunner says Li is better, so who the fuck knows), just feel like your broadly-swept declaration of unplayability for the Tong master isn’t really doing him justice, is all.

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It’s possible that I’m undervaluing Lis ability to increase your setup time without having to actually draw the cards, (being able to save them for later without them taking up space in your hand), but honestly, I feel like I am having the same discussion I used to have about Quality Time. I think that almost every deck you can manage this with good play the vast majority of the time. Sometimes it feels awkward. You have to play with it in mind. But the massive increase in raw power is going to be worth it.

I think there is a psychological element to why anyone wants to play a card like Mr Li over actual draw. When you use him, you feel like you’re getting use out of him. You get what you want. It’s easy to use: You install him and then use him instead of drawing. No problems to solve about how to get use out of the cards you actually have. Earthrise has an effect that feels similar to Maxx, (who I have been loving BTW). It happens automatically. You take it for granted. The cards you get are something to deal with that isn’t always exactly what you want. Sometimes you have to get quick value out of your best cards and then run through a pup and take damage to justify them. It can be a pain. But it’s still better.

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While there’s no denying how miserable it is to pitch strong situational cards because you overdrew, for this to be a point in favor of Mr. Li, you would need to either use his ability enough to cycle through your deck completely, or you would need to shuffle via Special Order/Logos/whatever, and then draw enough for your slightly increased card quality to be relevant. At least when you discard your situational events, they’re right there in your heap to SOT.

E3? Oh right, Overmind. If you’re not running E3 (and I’m not, because real breakers ;)), Creeper looks even worse :astonished: . But OK, yeah, I could see trying it if E3 is already in the mix.

Creeper is one of those cards I’m convinced they whiffed on the cost on. Should be 3 to install.

We’ll have to match up again at the next SC, only thing time you bring the recurring credits Andy deck :).

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i think your hatred of mr. li is valid but not in this case because nord has cut special orders and is looking for hardware to set up his engine. in the standard andy deck special order fills in the gaps and you dont need li. now if you want to debate whether jumping through all these hoops for what i imagine in most games equates to a glorified toolbox worth of value then im on board :slight_smile:

there are decks that benefit more from lee than hotel. Aesop decks for example.

additionally, you are adding susceptibility to ellie.

Whether lee is better or hotel is better depends on how often a runner clicks for cash, number of duplicated cards in the deck, how much tutoring etc.

Mr Li is the best solution when you’re playing against PE and you need your feedback filter now. Discarding half your deck to get it is not an option. :smile:

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Mr. Li though is $3, one time. 2-3 Earthrises is $8 or $12. I’m not a huge Mr. Li guy but I’ve noticed in several games that Earthrise has set me back a bit and has taken away some running options as I wait to draw back into econ cards.

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That’s why EH fits in so well here, where it only costs $2—thanks, The Supplier’s Rewards Points Program! Both are tempo hits though, no doubt; the difference is in how likely you are to want any one of a dozen similar cards, or one specific card out of a dozen.

That, and how often you want to spend clicks to draw :).

Surely the point of Feedback Filter is that once you’ve found it you don’t need to discard any more cards to damage. So even if it’s the very last card in your stack you’ll be ok? Maybe that’s a slight exaggeration, but I don’t think you need to Li for your Feedback Filter. Mr Li feels really good, so does Earthrise. I think Earthrise is probably better. If you’re playing The Supplier, I think Earthrise is a no brainer.

Mr Li reduces the digging for an answer time. I think more often than not you should be making something happen with what you’ve got and drawing to replace the cards you’ve used. For this, Earthrise is certainly better (so long as you can afford your accommodation fees, man that place is expensive).

I don’t think you’ve played against a lot of PE if you think that’s remotely possible. If it takes you a long time to get feedback filter out you’re left trying to score out before your opponent does and there’s only so many credits you can make per turn. Spending 9 on a snare hit eats through them quickly. You need cards too.

Part of the reason Mr. Li might be feel better in Nord’s deck is that the Supplier is rarely empty so adding Earthrise to the stack and prioritizing it over econ/multi-access to get a discount and not even getting the benefit of draw until the turn after it’s installed may feel slow in an already slow deck – versus being able to drop Mr. Li once and click him 3 times or drop him on supplier and pull him out on a turn you know you need to dig several times. This has been mentioned before but a deck running a lot of important one ofs (like this deck) benefits from Mr. Li. more.

Overall, I love Earthrise, I think that card is great and in a more standard deck strictly better.

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If you can click for $3 and a draw with testing-mas-desperado, its actually pretty trivial. It could be the last card and you’re still fine.

Honestly I still prefer Quality Time to either Earthrise or Mr. Li for this sort of deck. Totally worth the 1 influence each.

Quality Time is paying $3 to have 5 cards available for your very next action. If that 5th card is the breaker or Legwork you need right now to stop the Astro train or steal the first Nisei MK II, QT is infinitely better than drawing that card 4 full turns later (with Earthrise on Supplier), when you are now in a deep hole.

Overdraw is a non-issue in this deck, between Logos’s +1 hand size and storing extras on The Supplier.

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But if you have a Li down, you have the potential to see and select from six cards in your stack at no additional cost before you take your final action. You only see one more card if you QT then draw twice and you consumed the QT to do it. There are a few situations where the burst draw is better, but this deck feels like it benefits from the consistent draw improvement more.

Edit: I should note I’ve played less than 10 games with this archetype and my comments on it should be considered in that context!

I won a store tournament with a Stirling deck in this vein, you can check it out here: Armored Turtle: Stirling is now a Store Championship Winner · NetrunnerDB

Data Folding wasn’t available at the time, but it’s a straight upgrade, just replace the Globalsecs for Dyson and the Underworld Contacts for Folding. Running both is overkill, you won’t need any more money and drawing these cards will reduce your speed, specially given how UC clogs your hand.

Some thoughts:

I think Mr Li is the superior choice for this kind of deck for two reasons:

  1. These decks play a lot of junk (Extra Suppliers, Mem Chips, Special Orders, Logos, extra economy cards etc.), and you are better off filtering them than drawing them. After all, drawing a good card is not meaningfully worse than drawing a good card and a completely useless one.

  2. Mr Li requires a smaller investment over time and allows to dig fast for answers in decks that normally need those anwers to keep the Runner at bay.

Legwork is a better choice then HQ Inteface. I tried both extensively and when it comes down to it, you won’t run HQ often enough to make HQ Interface worthwhile. When you hit it, it’s to clear it so you can focus on both R&D and the remote and Legwork is better for that.

Note that Legwork is also much cheaper. To see 4 cards, you’ll need to run twice with HQ Interface and it costs two more credits and an extra click to use it. Legwork also pairs much better with Logos, in fact, it’s my number one target.

Despite what people may think, Stirling makes the NEH matchup fairly easy. Those two clickless credits give him a huge speed boost and he’s not going to be stopped by NEH’s heap ICE suite or their assets.

Daily Casts is great in these builds, because it smooths your plays by being easy to play early on and by giving a meaningful boost late in the game when paired with The Supplier.

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