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Timing of Clot/Hades Shard/etc


#1

We’ve probably all been there, especially when these cards first came out.

Noise is milling the Corp to pieces. There’s 3 agendas in Archives right now, that’ll win the game for Noise, if he manages to access Archives. But the Corp happens to have a Jackson on the table, ready for him to work his magic. Corp turn just finished, and the runner starts his turn with 3 credits.

Clicks 1 and 2, he takes credits.
Click 3, Sure Gamble.
Click 4, the runner plops down his Hades Shard, and instantly uses it, winning the game.

Between clicks 3 and 4, how much time do you need to leave for the Corp to use their Jackson? Technically there’s an ability window after Click 3, correct? So how long should the Corp get to use that window? Should the Runner ask if the Corp has any actions before Click 4? Should the Runner just wait 3 seconds?

How would you rule, if you were TO’ing a tournament where there was a disagreement on this play, that you weren’t physically watching at the time of its occurance?


#2

I would wait a few seconds after my 3rd click, maybe like 15-20. I don’t like prompting people as runner because I could be suggesting something that they hadn’t thought of. I will do it as corp though if I suspect they are running clot, if you do it on every install, even assets, it can bluff them to use clot prematurely which is great.


#3

There is a window at the end of click 3 and one at the beginning of click 4 if I’m not mistaken. The curtesy would be a few second pause, usually I do 2-4, and shoot a glance to my opponent, until they notice I’m looking at them. Give that 1-2 seconds, then do your thing, because if they made eye contact, they’re paying attention…no room to say “oh wait I didn’t notice.”

Noise should be ready to pull the shard ASAP, so there is no excuse on the corp side of not hitting it in time. As for hitting 7 credits, or really 4 for that matter (I’ve been known to career fair a shard for the win lol), same procedure, just get eye contact and give them a second.


#4

Even just announcing the last click and pausing should be enough, but maybe that’s giving too much info? That’s been my standard procedure; and I don’t believe it’s led to either confusion or ‘reminding’ the corp that something could be game ending.


#5

I know in Magic if you take a short cut through a priority window without explicitly saying anything then the other player can make you back up to that window even if you have already revealed what you were planning on doing next.


#6

As the runner its on me when the corp sure gambles to know what I want to do; and every time I’m thinking clearly I’m going to jackson vs noise in that situation. If the runner does not verbally offer a window and plays too fast, the onus is on him to roll back so that I can Jackson.

I recall Damon saying at some point or other that he thought we should be communicating at every possible step when priority was being passed and that he considered any other kind of play sloppy.


#7

Only that way you can hardly ever play a game in sub 40 minutes. The amount of windows turing a turn are insanely high compared to Magic


#8

I’ve had 2-3 people enforce this against me, its quite annoying and disrupts my rather fast paced play, which is how I’m comfortable doing it. I don’t blame them for doing it, because it is quite fair, but I find constant priority passing obnoxious in ANR, and the game ‘works’ quite well without it.

If you say credit,credit,OMGINSTALLHADESSHARDANDWINFTWOMG in like 2 seconds, you’re clearly TRYING to cheat the system, and deserve a big FU. But if you, especially uniquely this turn, say “click for a credit…click for a credit…install hades, and use it” you’re fine.


#9

@BJester Part of this can be avoided with good players, but yeah that sounds overly onerous to do during a tournament.

I also dislike the correlation to magic’s priority rules, as the stack is completely antithetical to priority in netrunner. As well because of hidden info (such as influence) there are times when simply ‘backing up’ is not an option.

Example: playing a midseasons when the corp ‘forgets’ they are at 4 creds instead of 5 on click 3 is something that can’t just be backed up, as it drastically alters the expectations of both players.


#10

ok, in your Midseasons play, what would you do as jugde? Game loss? Because the card wasn’t allowed to get played in the first place

It can’t be avoided with good players, example
3 deep server ICE, clone chip

That alone is like 6 legit windows

I usually don’t fuzz about asking people if they want to use their window, at least the first time it happens(facedown remote, install new card in same server for example). After the first time, I just wait a few seconds


#11

I just ask if they have paid abilities if we’re in a game where that would be relevant – e.g. if they might be packing Clot, or if I might be packing Hades Shard. I don’t do it after every click, just during turns and on clicks where it could be relevant. For example, if they might have Clot but have no SMC/Clone Chip/Peddler, I just do my stuff. If they’ve got Clone Chip and a Clot in the bin, though, I’ll ask after each click where they might want to install Clot.

“Install a card, drawing a card (NEH). Paid abilities?” (Pause.) “Shipment from SanSan, Astro token, score.”


#12

Why shouldn’t you be able to back up a midseasons you couldn’t afford? The corp is only hurting themself by revealing it.


#13

No amount of time signals a pass in priority. If you say “credit, credit, sure gamble” then pause for 20 seconds, the corp might think you’re just trying to decide what to do next (or the corp might be deciding whether to respond with the Jackson but hasn’t told you they’re thinking)


#14

You have to ask every time, it’s the only way to be 100% sure.

I posted about this when it was being discussed from an FA perspective, but most if not all of the principles are true.

From the FA thread: Official Rules Question Thread

The same applies for runners with Hades Shard, with the TLDR being:
You have to ask every time, because or else Corps are well within their right to say “I was still thinking and never passed priority back to you”. But this is not all bad, you need to use this to your advantage, and get them to pop it prematurely by asking it at random times whenever it COULD be relevant (aka anytime above 4 credits, thanks career fair). Then you get to play this cute mind game where you try to gauge the value of archives by how the Corp reacts to your explicit request.


#15

You could do without the word “technically” there. There is a window. Full stop.

The fact that passing priority every time is boring and cumbersome, and that the game design in that area is really inelegant, and that only passing priority some times (when it’s important) gives away your intentions doesn’t mean that your opponent’s ability window can be wished away willy-nilly.

Did your opponent end their paid ability window? If not, it is still their paid ability window. If you have jumped the gun, tough. Hopefully both players can figure it out between themselves, and maybe you can use a pause to indicate lack of action, but if there is ever a dispute, the rules you refer back to are that the opponent’s window only ends if and when the opponent specifically says it has ended.


#16

[quote=“Tundinator, post:4, topic:4556, full:true”]
Even just announcing the last click and pausing should be enough, but maybe that’s giving too much info? That’s been my standard procedure; and I don’t believe it’s led to either confusion or ‘reminding’ the corp that something could be game ending.[/quote]

This is why I’m an “always count out your clicks” convert. Saying “Click 1: Take a credit, Click 2: Take a credit, Click 3: Sure Gamble. Click 4:” with just a brief pause for reactions doesn’t particularly slow down the game, but it lets them say “hang on, lemme think” if they need to.
As BJester says, the much harder question is how to deal with passing windows during a run. Those I pretty much only make explicit if it seems likely that one of us has something we might want to do, but even so, a quick exchange of gestures, expectant looks and head nods is pretty much all it takes.


#17

The only way to do it right is after every paid ability window, explicitly ask if the corp wants to do anything. And vice-versa.


#18

Yeah generally if you have two players who know what’s up, it’s about making sure you are both on the same page. If I am playing fast advance I will ask the runner if they want to react from the very start of the game, which can make it pretty intimidating, seeing me play remotes, and might lead to some hasty clots. With Hades Shard, I think you just give them 10 or so seconds, and if you then say “Play Hades Shard” and they reflexively say “Use Jackson” then you know they didn’t figure out to do it before you jackson, and calmly explain to them what happened, what will happen, and how to avoid it in the future.

But yeah with two decent players who know what’s going on, it should be easy enough to resolve the situation every time


#19

So I guess if I am corping against some of these sneaky Noise players maybe at the beginning of the game I should say: “I know what Hades Shard is. I know what Career Fair is. If you are at or above four credits, I need you to explicitly pass priority so I have an opportunity to decide whether to use Jackson before you attempt a game-winning shart. You can either verbally pass priority after every single click or acknowledge that you aren’t going to win on a cheap oversight and just let me know when you are going to shart. GLHF!”

Of course, if you want to shart without JHow finding out, you might want to talk to a Street Peddler…


#20

enh, I’m in the camp that the runner doesn’t owe you much more than a pause. if you’re playing at a level where people are anticipating the shard, they should be paying attention every time you hit 4 or 7 credits, and honestly if there are a dangerous number of agendas in the trash, it should simply be the default to pop jackson the second the runner hits 7. If the runner passes 7 credits and the corp doesn’t shit a brick and pop jackson asap (within a healthy pause given by the runner, ofc), well, tough luck, I guess you didn’t want to protect those agendas that badly.

If the corp is playing tight shard defense they’ll be watching the credits closely; if not, then they clearly didn’t intend to use the j-How. I don’t think it’s a good precedent to set in a game about bluffing to require that certain plays be blatantly telegraphed.

(obvious caveats for reasonably distracted opponents, not rushing it through while they’re talking to a friend or something.)