What do you think about the corp's deckbuilding today and in the future?

Corps having to play agendas and (usually) ice is not a new problem. What is new is the runner getting cards that can singlehandedly cripple entire corp strategies.

It used to be easier to win via fast advance, but now there’s Clot.
It used to be easier to win with meat damage, but now there’s IHW.
Soon there will be Film Critic to invalidate Midseason Replacements.

Playing anything other than glacier now means deciding between weakening your deck to be able to jump through these hoops (e.g. CVS to counter Clot, Traffic Accident to handle IHW, Contract Killer to handle Film Critic) or else all but conceding certain matchups.

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A bigger issue to me at least is not how little choice there is in agendas but just how meh the selection of ice can be in a deck. Ice is the primary way that the corp gets to dictate how they interact with the runner and most of the time that interaction boils down to “how many credits can I cost them”. The most interesting subroutines, those that say something other than “End the Run” almost never fire or whiff when they do. Its a little disappointing that most ice subroutines could be replaced with “The Runner loses 1 credit” without a whole lot of impact on the eventual outcome of the game.

The trouble is I don’t know what the solution is to this problem or if it’s even an actual problem. We’ve seen lots of creative ice but in the end they usually end up as some variant of something that already exists since they all get broken/bypassed/melted anyway. Is there some kind of unexplored corp archetype that uses ice differently?

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One of the best things about Noise used to be he was an ID where lots of ice subroutines would fire. (Faust kinda ruined that. But I used to enjoy that aspect a lot.)

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http://netrunnerdb.com/web/bundles/netrunnerdbcards/images/cards/en/08074.png

It’s sort of funny that this thread was talking about how 3/1s are a wasted design space for corps, and then a flood of spoilers with amazing 3/1 agendas comes out (one of them neutral!).

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Obviously thread is prescient as the spoilers address specific problems being talked about (i.e that 3/1s need to do more when scored/in the deck) :smile:

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I got a feeling deep in my bones about the purpose of 3/1s getting an overhaul in Mumbad after seeing stuff like Research Grant, Team Sponsorship, and Enforcer 1.0. There’s already a neat mechanic going on within HB with those two cards I think. Imagine a Corp agenda that was a reverse Board, increasing 1 pointers to 2!

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A fair place to start would be as a 5/0, then it applies the +1 effect while in the Corp’s score area. Testing can work out the kinks.

This inspired me with something that is worth AP before it’s ever scored. The balance would be tricky, but it’s an idea.

When I look at these 3/1 agendas I still don’t see myself putting them in scoring decks. The 2/1 yes, but if I was willing to play any 3/1 in a NBN deck I’d already be playing License Acquisition AKA “The Free SanSan”.

They are a step in the right direction though because they support murder nicely.

For example, score Breaking News, score the neutral 3/1, then tutor without revealing for 24/7 News Cycle. Next turn, 24/7 News to forfeit the 3/1 to trigger Breaking News, Traffic Accident Scorch. Hacker Mommy’s house just burned down.

You can do a similar play in Weyland with Posted Bounty, or in Jinteki with Philotic Entanglement. Accelerated Diagnostics could do some shenanigans also…

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3/1 tutor maybe goes in HBFA if chronos becomes less good as a meta call (which is becoming more unlikely with all the program trash). 3/1 that defends itself when runner is tagged is good 3/1 design. 3/1 that boosts traces is classic bad 3/1 design. (Basically, tag storm decks are already struggling for slots with tag punishment+Econ+tagging cards that playing this 3/1 is simply not gonna find room. Should be a 4/2.

Were over saturated with 3/1’s at the first quality, so while this one is fine we really don’t need more. Second one is good and they should keep making more on this level. Third one is trash

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We’ll see about the trace one, but the self scoring 3/1 i agree is quite strong. Gutenberg over RnD is almost a guaranteed tag so the agenda will be scoring its self out of there a lot. Otherwise, throw it behind a data raven. Film Critic seems like the only way to shut it down, and i have a suspicion that if the tags fly around like they might, Film Critic could be hard to defend.

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If the tags fly around like they might, Dorm Computer is suitable tech at at 0 cost and 1 influence. 4 uses to check remotes or on Medium/RDI runs.

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Definitely. That would be a sweet bit of play and counter play, though. Powershutdown for 0 is pretty effective these days already.

We had the literal exact opposite problem last year, where there were plenty of corp options, but runner was too strained to try to answer everything so your options were whatever your favorite flavor of andromeda was. It isn’t anything inherent in the game design, it’s a power gap.

While i’d like better agendas and a few more options, that will mostly get solved when the gap closes.

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Yeah, I’d just like to second this.

I think my first reply came off as a bit negative. I do think there are problems with FFG’s agenda design to a certain degree, but overall I think Corp play right now is fine. Yeah, I wish there was more ice pulling double duty (or more econ cards pulling double duty), but overall I think its mainly due to the power level of runners heavily constraining corp’s ability to fool around. There are some inherent “issues” that corp’s need a certain number of ice/agenda/econ, and I think it would be better for the game if FFG doubled up goodies with these cards to let you play around more, but I think there isn’t a game breaking enjoyment issue. I’m really enjoying HBFA right now, even though its definitely not at the power level of some of the runner decks.

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I very much agree, the fact that there are design directions I’d like FFG to take* doesn’t mean I’m unhappy with their work or not having fun with corp play.

*Things I’d like to see:

  1. Bi-modal assets, operations, and ice to allow experimentation without losing deckslots. D&D shows they’ve started doing more of this.
  2. An actual decent ice tutor to enable all the weird positional ice and enhance gear check strategies.
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i agree somewhat with the premise, but definitely not the conclusion.

in tournaments in my meta, i see a lot of the same corps, NEH, RP, EtF, Blue Sun, maybe the odd Tennin, Argus, TWIY*, but most corps in my meta stick to one strong ID per faction.
runners don’t have this problem. plenty of Kit and Chaos Theory to balance out the Kates in shaper (not many people play Kate, actually). some Leela and Andy (but overall not a lot of criminal). loads of people have been trying out Geist lately (but who knows if we’ll see him at a tournament). and every Anarch runner sees play (except poor Quetzal)

so there isn’t a lot of variance with corp IDs, and this isn’t the same ‘problem’ with runners.
is it a problem? is it annoying? sure, i guess it’s a problem (ie: i see how some people see it as a problem, even if i don’t personally). yes, it’s probably kind of annoying.
but, is it the end of the world and any reason to quit the game? no. not by a long shot.

looking at the initial argument, using the term ‘waste’ to describe the fact that corp decks include the agendas seems a bit off to me. corps have control over how the agenda suite is realised. that’s one reason RP is so strong. Nisei, NAPD, Future Perfect… there’s definitely some variance with the odd Hades Fragment, Chronos Project, or Fetal AI, but the core of the deck design floats around these agendas that protect themselves.
the corp player gets to choose if the deck focuses on 2/3s or 3/5s, or maybe even a bunch of 1/3s in Argus/PE. the corp player gets to know how effective a current will be in the game (ie: in a deck full of 1/3s, your current probably isn’t going to last very long). the runner can’t know that when they put their deck together.

i agree with a lot of the previous discussion that part of this problem is the choice of agendas. some are clearly a lot stronger than others. in fact, i would almost argue that a blank 2/3 is strong than many 1/3s and 3/5s. the corp really needs stronger agendas that aren’t 2/3s, and we’re getting those in Global Food Initiative and Quantum Predictive Model. others, like Vanity Project and Improved Tracers are steps in the right direction as well.

'enough ICE to protect HQ and R&D early’
do you though? sure, if you’re playing glacier i suppose, but no matter your deck style, corp’s are supposed to be weak early game while they try to set up. some games, i install ICE first turn but don’t even rez it. yeah, just installing it deters the runner from running, but it also doesn’t slow them down by wasting time looking at my Hedge Fund on the top of R&D. and yes, they can just as easily score an agenda off the top of R&D first turn as they can once i have 5 pieces of ICE and a Caprice protecting it, but what’s really the problem here? that we didn’t make them work for it?

and about having to leverage psi/scorch/etc., corps actually have that luxury of leveraging an alternatve win condition. how often does the runner win by milling? the closest i got was seeing the last card of R&D being the last agenda i needed to score. even just a couple of Snare!s can create a great scoring window against the runner, just because the threat of a flatline is enough that they have to slow down and draw back up before putting pressure back on the corp. yes, ICE eventually becomes ‘just a tax,’ but corps need to leverage this to win. Back Channels is a great card that makes bluff/bait runs more plausible. wasting the time to run down a scoring remote just to see a Junebug can set the runner back so much, even if it doesn’t flatline.
and ICE is only ‘just a tax’ insomuch as it is the runner who decides when and where they run. things like Marcus Batty, Keegan Lane, and An Offer You Can’t Refuse are able to shake up what the runner can and can’t do in a run or lets the corp decide where the runner is going. things like Wendigo aren’t enough because the runner can just break it.

the thing is, corps can meaningfully specialise. in fact, i would strongly argue that it is the corps who are the ones specialising. it’s the runners who have to grab every troubleshooter they can to account for lots of different archetypes. the thing is, they have the abilities now to handle more problems more effectively. yes, there’s a lot of Eli, Wraparound, Tollbooth, but it’s the corp who decides what the game plan is. it’s the runner who has to match and beat it. and while we’re on this subject, at the most recent Auckland Regionals, most of the games at the top table were corp splits, again and again. with things like RP, Butcher Shop, and NEXT EtF, it was hard for many of the runners to match everything. they didn’t have all of the tools available for every game at just the right time to deal with the polarised variety of archetypes. i think that for a long time, the game was pushed faster with NEH fastrobiotics, but now that RP has begun to catch on, a lot of slower archetypes are seeing play as well, and the same tools for dealing with FA are not the same tools for dealing with glacier. yes, runners can get these tools more easily, but they’re also having to grab more troubleshooters that they wouldn’t normally need or want to grab.

things are definitely improving, so i don’t know if any of these concerns will be valid in a month or so. we’ll see. i personally don’t completely agree with them anyway, but i can see the merits of the concern.

one final point, the whole crux of this rant rests on an argument for tier 2 corp decks. so basically what we have is: tier 1 corp and tier 1 runner are about equivalent. at the very top of the competitive branch of netrunner, this argument agrees that corp and runner are about equivalent. and once you get into tier 2, runner is doing better than corp. what exactly is the problem here? the fun, eccentric, off-the-wall corp decks aren’t as good as the fun, eccentric, off-the-wall runner decks? why exactly is this a problem? the desire to remain competitive can’t be the main agent of this argument if the argument is just calling for a better tier 2 corp.

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That was a lot of post! I agree. I also think ffg are very much aware of it as the corp cards in the new box look to be directly trying to deal with current issues with ice and scoring (eg Archangel and Quantum Pussy).

I would also add that issues with subroutines only being a tax is as much an issue with tutor heavy runners and glacier corps. The best way get ice to fire is to apply early scoring pressure (the second best is to play against face first criminal). The move towards one shot ice solutions and some of the new ice designs and upgrades coming out make me feel quite confident about this improving as the game forwards. Now if only they’d rotate genesis already (and Architect). :smile:

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Yeah Self-Modifying Code always seemed a bit too strong

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id love to see FFG revise the default corporate action card to include - click, click - > shuffle a card from archives or HQ back into RnD. That IMO would help solve the Jackson Howard has to be in every corp deck problem…

The agendas are moving the right direction i think. the 5/3s with 1 influence that is only worth 2 points to the runner tells me FFG understands. i am quite curious what happens when genesis goes away. HB could probably live without vitruvius and NBN could live without beale but i cannot imagine a good weyland deck without atlas.

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