I would say that many of the matches you are looking at are after the cut. Which means that people are tired after a long day of running. I don’t think click-tracker helps that much, since mistakes happens anyways. And for me, having a click-tracker as corp throws me personally off, since a corps turn is faster and simpler.
Have you got links to the videos that you find so egregious? I would say typically all games have the potential for errors or mistakes, some more than others, but Netrunner is complex and after many rounds things can get missed. Most times games with judges, mistakes will get picked up. Are you not finding this the case? Which tournaments are we talking about? You may have to bear in mind that local store monthly tournaments and other things won’t be as stringent as the premier level events.
Also note that it is sometimes possible the players at the table know what’s going on but viewers have imperfect information. For example, I played a game on stream at Worlds and in both the commentary at the time and the alternate commentary that someone posted later, it was questioned whether I’d cleared a tag and people assumed I hadn’t. What actually occured at the table, is I didn’t take the physical counter and at a later click spent two credits to remove it. Both I and Tagore know what the game state is, but it seemed to confuse viewers. Be aware with some games you view, you don’t have access to all the details.
In that same match, I started using click trackers for my opponent because things were getting messy - and indeed people complained about the state of the table (on Twitch apparently), but crucially, the game as played and judged by Lukas, didn’t have any critical errors that I’m aware of. Even if it looked confusing to outside pairs of eyes.
As @Therad says, you also have to bear in mind the time of day. At UK Nationals the elimination rounds were straight after many (7?) rounds of Swiss and I saw the player who finished second of a fields of about 170 play a Sweeps Week for 1 credit at one point in the double elimination. Is he a bad player? No. Was there a more optinal move? Definitely. Is the state of game play due to 12 hours of playing Netrunner? I think you know the answer…
You may also want to bear in mind that posting (essentailly) “you lot should pay more attention, this wouldn’t happen in Magic” is probably not going to get you an overwhelmingly positive response as a starter for ten!
I’d be interested in hearing which videos you think are particularly bad. I know my first appearance was at a Store Championship and there were tons of mistakes - but that sort of thing happens a lot.
Netrunner usually has far more triggers that you need to pay attention to than Magic because there are no board wipes/removal, yet I can tell you that in casual-level Magic (meaning FNM), there are a lot of mistakes that happen as well, and I don’t care. You are rarely going to lose a game because you missed that one trigger that would have given you 1 life / 1 credit. Even so, I feel it’s worse when I win a game that in hindsight I shouldn’t have, but even that happens. This is not MTG where actual money, sometimes a lot, is on the line.
okay forget that i mentioned magic at all, this is not a magic vs netrunner or anything, i dont play magic anymore
i mentioned magic because i never saw a game of magic being won on misplay ,and if it was it was disqualifying later or smth.
i have watched every single video that has been uploaded on stimhack main page. every one of them has missplays,
in the last video the guy wins on the 5th click, iv seen a game where there was an asset and an agenda in the same server, not to mention extra/lost credits those happen all the time, it’s the usual for me now, extra/lost clicks happens from time to time too
it just makes me wonder, i could theoritically play netrunner at a tourney and keep getting extra credits or clicks and be ok with it ?
people do get tired from netrunning, i mentioned it, maybe there could be more breaks? make the tourneys last 2 days so the people rest?
especially when prizes are included games that are lost/won by misplays just makes me furious
misplays are ok, technical mistakes arent, you cant not get 1 credit from your hb identity, you cant use kate 2 times, you cant get 5 clicks, you cant pay less to res ice or to install. costs are mandatory
I agree with the above comments that playing Netrunner for 8+ hours straight gets very tiring and the amount of mistakes increases. However, (and this has come up elsewhere as well) a lot of people here seem to think tracking clicks is not worth it. And I really disagree. Tracking clicks does not slow the game down by a large amount but really helps with making sure the amount of mistakes is minimized. Good play still involves planning out your turn beforehand and not click-per-click, but I would prefer if people track them consistently.
One thing I’ve seen people do and have been doing occasionally myself, is to track the runners clicks as the corp. Tracking clicks is nearly pointless as corp (“one draw, two install, three install”), but during the runners turn there’s a lot more happening. The runner is busy thinking and stuff, but as the corp it’s easy to watch him and keeps your attention on the game.
I think there are many games from regionals or gnks or after long days where there are misplays here and there, and as I am also from an mtg background I can sort of understand your reaction, though you clearly have never yourself played that much and then seen a vid of yourself, showing how many misplays you made without even realizing it. That would shut you up.
For what it’s worth, I know that in the 7 or so videos of the Australian nationals top 16 I am in I don’t think I made any misplays, and I don’t use click trackers or brain damage trackers, I just remember xD But yeah, maybe just play something like a two day event, do well enough to top and get into elimination rounds, then get through a few of those, and judge yourself before you judge others at that point.
I agree with what he’s saying, I’ve noticed many videos have misplays that are kind of egregious, it may not seem like a big deal, but it can potentially confuse a new player watching, or overall make the presentation weaker than it is. It is unavoidable, but it’s crazy to think it doesn’t happen. I’ve also played a lot of games that absolutely hinge on singular units of clicks and/or credits, which seems to imply that the game is designed very tightly and has a lot of hidden under working, those which are undermined by misplays. We’re all human though, which is why we need bioroids in our lives.
To clarify, most of the big mistakes are in casual play, but with players that we know are good.
it’s not about shutting me up, it’s about making things happen that CANT happen normally. this must be minimalized
and no im not talking about joshua B, i stated by himself. Do you ever watch the videos on this site? because i do, many are enjoyable but others are dark and full of errors
@cmcadvanced exactly, the game is really tight, but illegal plays (you can’t really miss some triggers. they are mandatory) is what really gets me ,if the players are tired the judges must be much more careful , any credit lost or gained makes a difference in this game
What judges? A great many of the videos you see posted are from small Netrunner tournaments where there are no judges present at that particular table (if any table - often the TO is probably playing too!). It would be great to have a judge observing a match (though even that doesn’t always catch things…) but it’s just not possible.
Very interresting points by Grimstringer.
Seing also some players doing mistake that always favor themselves is often suspicious.
The after-cut “excuse” is not valid, even if we can understand it. That is saying “if you want to cheat go ahead and say you were tired”.
Also in France big tourneys are often on two days and i don’t think there is more or less missplays than elsewhere.
Solutions could be found and are often etiquette question :
draw cards and take creds when your opponent is watching
dont start your turn when he is still discarding
make your board easy to read
tell what you are doing
track your opponent clicks
ask your opponent to slow down if you didnt follow
dont do shortcuts (ex: play dirty laundry on archives gain directly 4 and a datasucker token)
But I agree, everyone should do their best to avoid mistakes, even if it means adding 5 minutes to the time limit.
By being cautious and respectful we will avoid what I would call “opportunity-cheating” (take some creds/cards by mistake and keep thoses because opponent did not see)
Okay, having extra clicks and so on is wrong and normally people avoid this if possible. More and more people use click trackers these days and it’s good practice. I don’t mind if an opponent does my clicks for me as it keeps me straight, but it’s both player’s responsibility. I’ll check out the video you mentioned, because now I’m curious!
Theoretically… I can tell you from my community point of view, if people get a reputation for not being able to keep track of their clicks or credits, word gets round and player pay more attention to what their opponent is doing in those games.
There are a lot of advocate for doing the double elimination on a different day than the Swiss rounds. In smaller tournaments or due to other constraints, this isn’t always possible. Personally I don’t mind being Iron Man about it, but I understand the other view. In large tourneys, more breaks aren’t feasible as the length of time for the Swiss runs to 10+ hours on its own.
[quote=“Grimstringer, post:5, topic:5934, full:true”]misplays are ok, technical mistakes arent, you cant not get 1 credit from your hb identity, you cant use kate 2 times, you cant get 5 clicks, you cant pay less to res ice or to install. costs are mandatory
Agreed, mandatory effects are the responsibility of both players to enforce. Mistakes do happen though and fatigue is definitely a thing. Very few tables have judges watching them.
Introducing good practice can solve a lot of the potential problems. Turn Kate sideways when you’ve used her ability, make sure recurring credits are flipped, use click trackers, etc.
I agree with your sentiment, and I think most players to try to get things right. Balancing all the factors (time pressures, length of game day, etc.) means that sometimes mistakes happen.
[quote=“cmcadvanced, post:11, topic:5934, full:true”]
I agree with what he’s saying, I’ve noticed many videos have misplays that are kind of egregious[/quote]
Maybe egregious to someone sat at home in the comfort of their own home looking with a critical eye, and not as obvious to two tired guys eight hours into a tournament, hundreds of decisions into a game?
Normally most mis plays comes from runner not tracking clicks. I will say that the last few teamwork casts had some particularly shady looking misplays. I try to tighten up my plays and keep a watchful eye,not because I don’t trust my opponent, but there are sometimes long turns with long turns and many decisions, which all load to play errors.
I should probably also mention that the higher levels generally have fewer mistakes that go unmissed. For example in the loser’s bracker final at Dutch Nationals, one player accidentally trashed the wrong card from a server and installed an agenda in with an asset. He “won” the game, but when the cards were revealed at the end had to forfeit due to this error (I genuinely believe is was a simple error) - so this sort of thing is picked up when others are watching. Games at smaller tournaments or eariler in the day - not so much.
I saw one at my first tournament using tokens to mark their runner actions. You put down a token where you did something. This makes the turn super-easy to track. I stole the system shamelessly, works like a charm.
We should probably all be a bit more attentive to what our opponents are doing. But it is hard to rule away. Should you lose a game because you forgot to pay for that clone chip? Seems a bit harsh.
I think there’s a fine balance here. I personally like making sure everything on my side of the board is neat and clear. If I take a tag I have to physically take the tag token and put it in front of me, even if I’m immediately clearing it. That’s not a dig at people who do things differently like Gary’s talking about in his game vs Tagore - I fully recognise how pedantically OCD I am about things like that! But equally I have a tendency to tilt against players who use shorthand like not actually taking tag tokens, or saying things like “play Liberated, take 12, your go”. I have to use more mental bandwidth trying to understand their side of the board because it’s not how I would do it.
Part of getting better as a competitive player for me has been about managing my own play/accounting style in the way that best allows me to make good decisions and also not letting my opponents different style effect me. After all, it’s not on them to play how I want them to. My way helps me avoid mistakes. It might not for others so they should play the game how they like. Within limits. Tim should still tidy his board.
So I think we all have a responsibility to avoid mistakes like the stuff described in the OP, but we need to accept some will get through and we should try to avoid judging each other’s ways of keeping things straight in our heads.