Regarding ST + Sneakdoor Beta, I thought the reason that was revised was because Security Testing doesn’t do its’ replacement effect until the access step which is later than when Sneakdoor Beta changes it to a successful run on HQ (in which case ST no longer meets its trigger condition).
Right but if the replacement for Sneakdoor changing the successful archives run into a successful HQ run leaves ST on archives intact (able to later run it for money), why does salsette slums cripple CtM? In both cases you have a replacement effect occurring that kills the condition on which the other relies upon (and, assume, would be the first instance of the condition it hadn’t been replaced), but for some reason ST makes it through, and CtM doesn’t? I don’t see what is different between them.
… Is my friends rational.
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Now realizing I misread Jacko’s original text of:
To say that abilities that say “if” (at all) are conditional. So the reason ST survives is intact (Sneakdoor is constant and occurs before ST gets a chance to execute).
Still confused about CC/Imp vs. TFP/Chrysalis though.
Just wanted to say I appreciate you @jakodrako. You work hard to ensure people understand the rules and context of the game, and I want you to know that there’s a lot of us who appreciate the clarity you bring into the community.
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@anon34370798 Having rules questions is one thing, but you need to be able to accept an answer even if you don’t happen to like it.
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I’m sorry but I ask a game question which happens to open a can of worms. You have the choice to eat the worms or say “yucks”.
FAQ would say “eat the worms”, I’ll eat them : I’m allready eating my Tennin invisible errata.
Really?
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Out of curiosity, how would you handle Sneakdoor/SecTest interaction with this code?
My guess is that you’d have to differentiate between a ‘successful run’ event and a ‘successful run on specific server’ event. (You have to guarantee that the Runner can’t choose a different ordering of the effects.) Also possible is that Sneakdoor wouldn’t be a listener in this case, and would be one of those distributors, or otherwise worded such that “Make a run on Archives. Send ‘Successful HQ run’ event if its successful instead of the normal ‘Successful Archives run’ event.”
Ah, that’s what I was missing. Slums is a Conditional ability that when resolved sets up a Constant effect, it seems. That resolves why CtM still doesn’t work, even on Corp’s turn. (And also the ‘once per turn’ Slums trigger looks for a specific event that happens before ‘Trashed’ happens, which also explains things for me.)
This is what initially confused me because I had a(n incorrect) mental model that portrayed each card as remembering if it had done its ‘first time’ thing already or not. (In theory you can deal a net damage, and then Crick install a Tori to that server, deal another net damage, and Tori won’t trigger.) In programming speak, the first thing I saw each handler doing would be to set its own ‘first’ variable, then check conditions, then resolve. Which was wrong.
Yeah, really.
I’m talking here about game questions. I’m not the only one to disagree.
Suddenly out of the blue, OT guys are coming here and tries to start ad hominems “Syntax = LOL”. (I’m used to this btw. Those guys are all bored guys. They want new exiting decklists or spoiler or tactic and only see a nebulous discussion bumping AKA go read those exiting stuff you like or go write those, not my problem).
So, yay, tell what is the problem. Do tell why OT should always ends all long discussions here. I’m fine with that. That’s all OT I’ll make.
Guys i hate to interrupt good forum drama, and also to continuously prod on the same topic, but my dumb friend still can’t figure out why CC/Imp doesn’t murk Chrysalis.
Is there any chance you guys would be game for helping the retarded kid cross the street, metaphorically speaking (about the street; the kid is all kinds of handicapped)?
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This discussion has been going on in here for 200 posts. 200!!! If you want to keep pressing the issue, make a new thread at least. This thread is to ask rules clarifications, and while this is going on real questions are hard to ask because a discussion on a rule that has already been answered just continues to roll downhill.
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For the same reason that you can’t Imp a Snare! to avoid its effects.
CC and Imp both need to access the card, and then they can trash it. When the card is accessed-- STOP!! Chrysalis says you should encounter it immediately. (Remember, if we hit a trigger condition (access Chrysalis) we stop doing whatever we were doing before and resolve our triggers.) Once you’re done with the Encounter that Chrysalis triggered, then you go back to accessing the card, so now CC and Imp are able to be used instead of paying the trash cost.
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Well, now I know that Jinteki.net had a lot of problems with Sneakdoor for a reason =p Now I’m actually curious how jnet does it but reading clojure hurts my mind.
But yeah, I think you just make a custom procedure for executing Sneakdoor runs. That card is a jerk.
Yup, 200 is pretty close to what I called a can of worms.
The situation is simple, nobody could reply to this:
- Hi there I’m the runner guy look I’m in your remote trashing your card.
- Hey I’m CTM I don’t fear you.
- Well hey, got super secret weapon look I’m a Slum guy !
- Mkay, you stinks.
- So I’m in your remote trashing your card.
- Mkay you’re making the trash action so I trigger.
- Bet you do. Me too. So tada, RFTG that card instead of trashing it.
- Mkay so I trigger then.
- Yay but no. Magic ruling says if I resolve first, then your about to be true prereq, pre-triggered prereq innovation transform into a must be totally true prereq like hey, it was always the case before. So GG, say hello to your cat before @Syntax eats it alive.
You guys, are registering CTM prereq before it happens, I’m only telling this. Then change the definition of the prereq so it sticks to the ruling.
A prereq, in my world, stays the same prereq at registering and at call back if simultaneous effects.
In yours, no. You have the definition that suit your needs. At first you say prereq triggers because the runner was doing an action, then at callback you’re saying “but hey why not checking the result aswell?”.
If you’re checking for the result in your prereq then you must had registered the trigger too early, in my world.
This is putting like additional prereq stuff to a (allready paid, or paid too early ???) prereq.
And I just say : triple warning guys, this is a big can of worms, CTM in your model is the only card in the game that prereq is met before it’s actually “paid”.
And no, despise the apparences I don’t live in a fantasy universe.
You know what, @jakodrako, you could tell “hey Slum ends the trash action but it’s not on the card, like the word “installed” was not on Tennin so hey invisible errata, let’s move on” and I’d 100% agree with all of you. But you choosed the nested road imo just to avoid an errata.
I get that this is the accepted reason, but what I don’t get is why this is the rule. Look at the text for each of these cards:
Credit Crash: Make a run. Trash the first non-agenda card you access during this run at no cost. […]
Chrysalis: When the Runner accesses Chrysalis, he or she encounters it. […]
Both effects occur based on the runner accessing the card. Chrysalis seems to require access no differently than CC (why is it, and effects like it, special?). From my perspective, this should then be “Chrysalis is accessed --STOP!! We should now evaluate constant/conditional abilities like we do with everything else like this in the game, and determine that CC goes first (because it’s a constant ability, and, even if it was conditional, it’s a runner-side effect on what is likely the runner’s turn)”.
The only rationale I can come up with, playing devil’s advocate, is what I said previously; that “accesses/accessing” is treated as a step before “access”. Is this the case?
I’m willing to branch off this subject into a separate discussion if this is dragging on too much in the main post.
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You’re fine.
This question is one of the reasons the Blood Money UFAQ isn’t out yet. I will answer when I have one.
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Sneakdoor Beta has a long and tortured history because of Security Testing, Ash, and the Shards (and in fact still does not work correctly with Utopia Shard installation).
When Sneakdoor sees the :successful-run event fire and the run is still on Archives (i.e., you haven’t Bullfrogged or Copycatted away elsewhere), it swaps [:hq] into the run vector in the game state and does some other hackery to allow access replacement things that care about HQ activate. I expect Omar Keung to be as ugly or worse to deal with.
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The difference is “When you access” is a trigger at the moment you “touch” the card. Which is before you can interact with it during the access phase (when you will trash it, or steal it or whatever). That’s why FETAL AI triggers before you steal it: if you stole it first, it would never do damage because you would have advanced beyond the “access” phase.
It’s the same as “when you encounter” and actually being in the encounter. You can’t break the ice before “when you encounter” triggers are resolved.
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Right, so I think really we’re agreeing with each other, no? I’m saying that, in order for the effects to occur before there runner side effects, they must be occurring at a step before the “access” step. I called that step the “accessing” step, which I think is equivalent to your “when you access” step? It needs to be at a different timing point, otherwise the runner cards would have priority, and likely break Netrunner.
I can understand there being a “pre-access/when you access/as you access” step before the “you are accessing” step. Cards with the text “when accesses” go in the first bin, and “do X on access” go in the second. This is how it is? Seems to work with existing cards:
Snare!: If you pay 4 when the Runner accesses Snare! […]
Chrysalis: When the Runner accesses Chrysalis […]
The Future Perfect: When the Runner accesses The Future Perfect […]
Compare to:
Imp: Once per turn, you may remove 1 hosted virus counter to trash a card you access […]
Credit Crash: […] Trash the first non-agenda card you access during this run at no cost. […]
You can call it whatever you want, as long as we’re in agreement. 
Think about it this way (calling them steps helps):
You access one card.
Step 1: “When you access” - instance of touching the card, trigger happens. Must be resolved before moving on.
Step 2: “…you access” - happens during the access phase proper. when you can interact with the card seen. You now get to decide to use an Imp token, pay additional costs to steal an agenda (like Fetal or NAPD).
Step 3: “immediately after you access” - effects like Maya that happen after you interact with the card can trigger.
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