Man, I really want to reply to this as best as I am able, but as you note, your post is somewhat gargantuan in scope, so I’m undoubtedly going to end up with a similar textual behemoth. Props for responding so comprehensively to our counter-arguments.
Huh. I guess I’ll address the first point first. Given that this was in direct response to my claim that Data Ravens and Gutenbergs are a problem and @kenobob’s related point about resource-based Kim struggling against Butcher Shop, it seems to follow that you are advocating floating tags fairly early (though not necessarily off the bat, perhaps not until you have taken out a Scorched Earth or Traffic Accident?). This changes things a lot, so I’m glad to know this - I was under the impression that you were advocating for a more standard ‘Good Stuff Edward’ with the expected Liberated Accounts and Earthrise Hotels.
That being said, you respond to this
with this
which sort of suggests that you are, in fact, (unknowingly?) advocating the use of resources, in order to accelerate your set-up. Perhaps I am misreading you, though. If you were simply making a general statement about Anarchs not struggling to get reliable accesses aside from MaxX, then it would be much appreciated if you proffered some of your alternate, ‘Ed-specific’, rapid set-up methods. 3x I’ve Had Worse, 2-3x Inject with prerequisite Clone Chips to save trashed programs? If so, the 3x I’ve Had Worse clearly can’t leave your hand in the Butcher Shop matchup (because they’re serving as damage prevention), which sort of just leaves the 2-3 Injects, which doesn’t really seem like enough. Maybe splashing some Special Orders to fetch required breakers? Are you delineating between resource-dependency, e.g. large numbers of important resources/one key resource, and simply using resources, e.g. a couple of Symmetrical Visages, maybe two Earthrise? Genuinely curious.
[quote=“PeekaySK, post:142, topic:3942, full:true”] [quote=“divadus, post:140, topic:3942”]
Seems like Whizzard has a HIGHLY relevant ID power in said matchup. I’ve always found it be fairly useful, myself.
[/quote]
Here’s the thing you seem to be missing: [/quote]
Before I address any further points, I would just like to say that the following argument you go on to make is not actually an argument against my point of Whizzard having a “HIGHLY relevant ID power in said matchup” at all. Your argument is about why Edward Kim’s ID power is also highly relevant against the Shop, albeit in a different way, a point which I admittedly contested somewhat, though not in the quote you used. You made this exact point in your “TL;DR”, so I suppose I find it a little odd that you chose to use the above quote.
[quote=“PeekaySK, post:142, topic:3942, full:true”]think about why those money-generating assets are a problem in the matchup…
It isn’t “because then they’ll rez so much ICE I’m done”…
It isn’t “because Psycho-Beale is an instant loss”…
So the main problem has got to be “Because they can Midseasons you and then keep nuking you until you’re dead”, right? This is the part you’re going to be attacking with Kim, not their PAD and Marked bullshit. Hitting Midseasons out of hand is huge, hitting Reclamation Order is game-changing, and every meat damage card you trash instead of taking to the face prolongs the game significantly. They can drown in credits for all I care, if they don’t have a win condition to turn it into.[/quote]
I don’t want to say “I know”, as I worry that that would undermine the considerable effort you put into constructing your response, but… I KNOW! Yes, I know that the money-generating assets are really only a problem because they enable Midseasons. And yes, I am very much aware that Kim’s potency in this matchup is that he has the potential to trash combo-piece operations, such as the aforementioned Midseasons, as well as the kill pieces. I suppose a large part of the point I was making was that Kim’s angle of attack is highly luck-dependent, whereas Whizzard’s is not. I’ve witnessed many, many games (and been in a few myself) where Kim (even in the ‘optimal’ matchups, such as this one) ends up trashing next-to-no significant operations because random is random. In fact, I distinctly remember a game where I trashed a Midseason Replacements (second trigger yo) off the top of R&D, stole an Astro next card, and was Midseasoned the following turn (the deck runs three of them after all). Assets, on the other hand, have to be installed in order to provide their benefit - there is no ‘luck of the access’ required in Whizzard’s asset denial.
As you note, if the Corp isn’t swimming in the money that they would otherwise be if I couldn’t deny their money assets, they are not going to be Midseason-ing me any time soon. Meaning I actually don’t even have to worry about hitting Midseasons out of their hand, whereas you do, because you’ve let them get away with money in the first place. On that note:
Now I’m really quite confused. Are tags a problem for your Edward or not? You’ve stated that Data Ravens and Gutenbergs are only a problem if you are resource-dependent (I don’t see how else to interpret this, apart from ‘don’t be scared to float a few tags’); then, you went on to say that consistent central accesses are reasonably achievable when you can Career Fair out Earthrise Hotels/Liberated Accounts or set up Adjusted Wyldsides (as mentioned, I struggle to reconcile this with the previous comment); and now, you comment that knocking out Midseasons is highly impactful. I am the bewildered. Again, I’m really, really not deriding you here - sincerely trying to follow your logic. Are you drawing a line between floating a few tags (holding one or two from Gutenbergs, plus a couple of Raven counters) and being absolutely tag-flooded (Midseasons for 15)? Because Information Overload with 10+ subroutines is much nastier than with 4 subroutines (I would agree)?
Anyhow, I don’t want to misrepresent you, so I shall wait upon a response (no obligation), before I attempt to better understand your approach.
[quote=“PeekaySK, post:142, topic:3942, full:true”]Having run both Ed and Whiz in regionals in the last month, my conclusions are:
For old-school netrunner (money, breakers, accesses, win), Whiz is the superior ID
For tagme-based denial strategies, I’d rather have Ed than either Whiz or Reina - with the exception of UCF and Information Overload, all tag punishment is operations-based. As a result, this is where Ed shines. Instead of Scrubber, just load up on Imp and Imp-recycling tech that you want to be playing anyway.[/quote]
And I guess this is where your own words cinch things for me. I’d comment about being perplexed by your mention of ‘tagme-based denial’ Edward with what you’ve said up to this point, but my befuddlement is already well-documented at this stage. Instead, I’ll focus on the fact that old-school Netrunner, as you describe it, is a tried-and-true method of winning games. ‘Tagme-based denial’ devoid of economic denial (you stated yourself that you don’t care how much money the Corp has) is not (a tried-and-true method of winning games). Which is to say, there may be merit to it (I’ll readily admit that I am not positive there is), but it certainly hasn’t proven itself yet.
Last point I’ll make, and only very briefly, because it’s absurdly obvious what I’m going to say - if you wanted to be Whizzard for most games of that tournament, but in one particular matchup were glad you were Edward, I’m pretty sure that means that Whizzard is clearly the superior choice at present, especially when he still has a “doable Butcher Shop matchup.”
Ultimately though, it just sounds like we play Netrunner entirely differently, and are unlikely to see eye to eye on this one. You like to live dangerously - “I’m okay to let a few tags stick, because I’m about to royally fuck up those Scorched Earths and Traffic Accidents in his hand, anyway!” - while I definitely prefer to be a little bit more in control - “I think I’d prefer to deny you the option of burning down my apartment block entirely. I’ll wait until match point approaches before I start risking life and limb”.
TL;DR: Whizzard is the bomdigi, but if you want to play Edward, that’s okay too.
