A (Mostly) Low Quality Discussion on Card Balance

[crossbrainedfool]

@voltorocks

While this latter category is pretty inexcusable design-wise(it’s pretty hard to argue that no one could have predicted that Net Police would never see play) I also think we’re seeing less and less of these types of cards. for example, I don’t think I’d put any of the cards from the last two data packs in this category, and there were only a handful in the last cycle. It’s probably true that the tight timetable of the data-packs is probably what leads to these types of cards being printed - that said, I think they seem to be doing a better and better job at ensuring that cards aren’t truly in this category of Never-will-be-playable.

Inexcusable is a bit strong. Not ideal? Absolutely. Mistakes? Sure.

It’s hardly a failure of horrible doom though.

[MasterAir]

I don’t think Bad Times lives in a world of never playable cards. It’s not fantastic, but its influence free often harsh tag punishment. The sort that will win you games against criminals.

I think headlock Reina can be a pretty good case study for this thread. It has a handful of key cards that were thought unplayable/not impactful enough. (Lamprey, Crescentus, possibly Vigil, maybe vamp) as key deck defining cards. It’s put up results - top 8 at London regional a couple of store championships.

There are thankfully few S-class cards that live in every and all decks. There are more awful cards that I can’t imagine there ever being a place for, but <10% of the card pool. About 1/2 the rest are playable in tournament decks. The rest raise an eyebrow in slightly underpowered game night jank. It’s good that there are interesting playable spaces to explore. I’m very happy with the state of netrunner. It’s a great game.

[moistloaf]

I never heard anyone claim Vigil was anything but playable.

Bad Times would have been reasonable at 2. It’s even possibly reasonable at 1 it often has no effect and always requires a tag.

[voltorocks]

sorry, I mean inexcusable here more in the literal sense (there isn’t really an explanation that would excuse printing Net police - as in, an “oh, I see why they did that. that makes sense, too bad it didn’t pan out” kind of excuse that applies to many of the other underpowered-but-interesting cards) and less in the common connotation of the word (as is, terrible, immoral, whatever)

It’s a really narrow slice of the cardpool that truly belongs in this baffling category - cards even the worst, jankiest, and most casual players wouldn’t ever really consider because they just do anything interesting or worthwhile. I’m inclined to believe other posters who suggest that some of these cards might be tied to ideas from ONR that no longer make sense.

[crossbrainedfool]

@MasterAir

I think headlock Reina can be a pretty good case study for this thread. It has a handful of key cards that were thought unplayable/not impactful enough. (Lamprey, Crescentus, possibly Vigil, maybe vamp) as key deck defining cards. It’s put up results - top 8 at London regional a couple of store championship

I’d argue Vigil is one the new pieces that make the deck tick.

Otherwise, this is exactly the sort of thing that makes declaring things unplayable premature.

@moistloaf

Bad Times would have been reasonable at 2. It’s even possibly reasonable at 1 it often has no effect and always requires a tag.

The problem with this is what happens when to it when you stack it. “Wipe the runner’s rig” is generally avoided.

@voltorocks

sorry, I mean inexcusable here more in the literal sense (there isn’t really an explanation that would excuse printing Net police - as in, an “oh, I see why they did that. that makes sense, too bad it didn’t pan out” kind of excuse that applies to many of the other underpowered-but-interesting cards)

I think with a lot of these cards (especially the trace relevant ones) depend on when the trace switch happened in development. It’s especially interesting that Core is relatively light on these cards. Only Access to Global Sec is in this camp, and even then, that card does something understandable.

[MasterAir]

I shouldn’t have mentioned vigil. It’s obviously good in this type of build. My recollection is that many of the first blush o&c reviews labelled it ‘easy to play around’.

My point stands, lamprey was ‘a cheap virus for Noise’ and this deck brings it front and centre.

[steve_houston]

@hhooo

Rachel Beckman

Not Rachel! This is the only card I would say on your list to give a shot. With Career Fair and Hayley it’s not a bad deal. And 90% of RP decks have no tagging. And everyone will be on RP for the foreseeable future…

[hhooo]

Yeah I may have been a little ruthless towards Rachel. But breaking news is never going away.

[crossbrainedfool]

@hhooo

BlacKat

As stated elsewhere, I’m really confident that this is an off by one sort of thing.

[steve_houston]

Yeah, I play a one - of and obviously don’t install vs NBN.

[Calimsha]

@MrMint

Some like to bring RP full code gates + encrypted portal and rielle stealth with dagger in tournament (I know a guy) with good result so far. ^^

He could easily be one of the best netrunner player in Belgium if he didn’t fool around with untested janks in EVERY FREAKING TOURNAMENT.

[edmund_blake_nelson]

I forgot ronin, Melange sucks now since everyone has better econ cards than it (PAD/Hedge fund+2 in faction econ)

anyway the list of every GREAT card (that is cards that are very strong) is interesting so i’ll make that list as well, certain cards barely did not make the cut mentioned here

Liberated account

Same old thing (Sorry if you were actually 3 click account siphon you would be on the list)

Queen’s gambit (people who don’t play asset econ make you sad)

Daily casts (good card but the tempo hurt it a lot)

I’ve Had worse (diesel is just better)

Cutlery (not necessarily that bad, but the fact is that even the MAXX decks aren’t play full counts of you)

Atman ( The new format has to many 3 and 2 STR ICE for atman to handle, architect really did it in)

Bank job
astrolabe
Special order

anyway on to the top 25
###[Every great runner card][1] (25 cards)

• [Andromeda: Dispossessed Ristie][2]

Event (10)

• 1 [Account Siphon][3]
• 1 [Diesel][4] ••
• 1 [Dirty Laundry][5]
• 1 [Emergency Shutdown][6]
• 1 [Indexing][7] •••
• 1 [Inject][8] ••
• 1 [Legwork][9]
• 1 [Lucky Find][10] ••
• 1 [Stimhack][11] •
• 1 [Sure Gamble][12]

Hardware (3)

• 1 [Clone Chip][13] ••
• 1 [Desperado][14]
• 1 [R&D Interface][15] ••

Resource (3)

• 1 [Kati Jones][16]
• 1 [Security Testing][17]
• 1 [Utopia Shard][18] •

Icebreaker (5)

• 1 [Cerberus “Lady” H1][19] •••
• 1 [Corroder][20] ••
• 1 [Cyber-Cypher][21] •••
• 1 [Femme Fatale][22]
• 1 [Mimic][23] •

Program (4)

• 1 [Datasucker][24] •
• 1 [Medium][25] •••
• 1 [Parasite][26] ••
• 1 [Self-modifying Code][27] •••

Built with [http://netrunner.meteor.com/][28]
[1]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/decks/MnbtBP2oaNWnzHQ8P
[2]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/andromeda-humanitys-shadow
[3]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/account-siphon-core
[4]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/diesel-core
[5]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/dirty-laundry-creation-and-control
[6]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/emergency-shutdown-cyber-exodus
[7]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/indexing-future-proof
[8]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/inject-up-and-over
[9]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/legwork-honor-and-profit
[10]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/lucky-find-double-time
[11]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/stimhack-core
[12]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/sure-gamble-core
[13]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/clone-chip-creation-and-control
[14]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/desperado-core
[15]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/r-d-interface-future-proof
[16]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/kati-jones-humanitys-shadow
[17]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/security-check-honor-and-profit
[18]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/utopia-shard-all-that-remains
[19]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/cerberus-lady-h1-all-that-remains
[20]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/corroder-core
[21]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/cyber-cypher-creation-and-control
[22]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/femme-fatale-core
[23]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/mimic-core
[24]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/datasucker-core
[25]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/medium-core
[26]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/parasite-core
[27]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/card/self-modifying-code-creation-and-control
[28]: http://netrunner.meteor.com/decks/MnbtBP2oaNWnzHQ8P

Events are really strong, strongest card type in the game, code gate breakers are weird, all of them aren’t amazing (Yog.0 USED to be godlike but everything changed when the fire nation (lotus field) attacked)

[mediohxcore]

@hhooo

Yeah I may have been a little ruthless towards Rachel. But breaking news is never going away.

The redeeming quality about Rachel is that you know 100% up front whether your opponent is packing Breaking News, so she will pretty much never die to it because you won’t play her against NBN. If she’s good against the rest of the field, and that field isn’t NBN heavy, she’s no worse than splashed Feedback Filter is against whatever NBN you do play. The only things you reasonably have to worry about are Snare and Snatch and Grab.

Cards like Traffic Jam are much worse; you can’t afford to have cards in your deck that you play and pay for AND they don’t do anything.

[Therad]

Vigil can never be played around (unless you are CI). Either the corp denies itself from options, or they give the runner more options. Damn if you do, damn if you don’t.

[bblum]

@mediohxcore

The redeeming quality about Rachel is that you know 100% up front whether your opponent is packing Breaking News

Not in the one format where she shines most – cube! Which makes her all the more exciting to install.

[PeekaySK]

My problem with Rachel is that she should have read “If you’re tagged when your turn ends, trash Rachel Beckman” - as is, she’s not only in danger of random-dying from Snares (which you can’t always see coming when you’re deciding whether to install), there’s plenty other situations where you want to be floating a tag momentarily as an efficiency play and having her out means you can’t - mainly stuff like random tagging traces which usually make no sense for the Corp to pump (think Ichi, Hunter, advanced Shadow, that sort of thing), Argus and so. In those situations, having her out means you’re severely constricting your options… not something I’m keen on for a card that costs so much.

[Dis]

Either that or instead of trashing she gets put on top of / shuffled into the stack (hiding from the tags) so you don’t need recursion to get her back.

Considering the uniqueness of her effect I could see her having a lower install cost in exchange for being two influence. If you’re playing Rachel at all its because you want the raw efficiency.

[moistloaf]

I agree. From a thematic standpoint, I guess she must be spooked really easily. Otherwise, the card makes no sense. Runners get tagged all the time.

"Oh sh** they traced us I’m out"
smh Rachel I thought you were a professional

[TheRedArmy]

See I always thought it was like the Corp hired her out to kill you instead of she got spooked.

“This is Rachel Beckman. She’s in the business of keeping people alive.”

Rachel smiled. “Only when I’m not in the business of killing them.”

I’ve always imagined it as the Corp is like “We got a fix on Noise/Andromeda/Whoever the fuck, call Rachel Beckman!” And since it’s a corp, and you’re just a poor, poor, runner, she quickly takes the Corp offer - she’s now in the business of killing!

[PeekaySK]

@moistloaf

From a thematic standpoint, I guess she must be spooked really easily.

In-universe, it’s because her father is actually a police officer and she, as an independent agent, often takes up contract work from NAPD and other law enforcement-related agencies. So, she cannot associate with known criminals without jeopardizing this source of work, which is keeping her in soybeef tacos.

So from that standpoint, I totally get why she has the current clause. Just wish it’d be a little more… forgiving of things you as runner have little control over. It’d be fine flavor-wise too - if you clear your name before word spreads around too much, you’re still good with her (after all, you might have gotten framed and are actually innocent). If, however, you are a demostrably criminal element (i.e. go tag-me over multiple turns), she packs her bags and leaves.

(hell, even Bandwidth screws you over - that just ain’t right )