Women are marginalised, especially in gaming. Christians aren’t.
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No, certainly not. But I think reasonable people can agree this is going to be a border case (right? Is anyone personally offended by it yet) and it’s probably enough that @spags remove the playmat if it causes anyone offense. I don’t think people in the West are so bothered by satirical religious iconography that it would be safe to assume someone would be offended by it.
One thing that bothered me about the initial post was the comments surrounding the man’s initial questions. If someone new comes in to play netrunner, are you not allowed to ask them what they do and how they got into netrunner? Is that not common small talk? How are you supposed to be welcoming to new people if you can’t talk to them?
I often ask people background questions as we play netrunner, how else do you get to know someone? Is there a bias here against conversations during a netrunner game?
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Hey, it’s cool. I have plenty of playmats (thanx, FFG!), and I’ll save the Macho Man one for FFG events (thanx, FFG!).
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I don’t think it was the initial small talk questions that were the problem, but it is definitely inappropriate to say to someone “who are you in relation to X; I didn’t know, I need to know that cuz what if she’s your sister or something. What if I wanted to hit on her?”
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I disagree that this is going to be a “border case”, and there are already many specific examples of this happening. There is already an implicit suggestion in your post that no “reasonable” person would be offended. You are effectively silencing anyone who would disagree and find it offensive.
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[quote=“Jage, post:103, topic:4557”]
If someone new comes in to play netrunner, are you not allowed to ask them what they do and how they got into netrunner?[/quote]
He quite literally just sat down next to her and started chatting her up while she was playing a game with someone else. That’s pretty rude, IMO. Don’t interrupt people during a game, even a casual one.
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I agree, it just bothered me how the original poster commented on these questions with a negative tone. I would actually support this and hope there was more friendly talk over netrunner games.
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I’m not saying no reasonable person would find it offensive. I’m saying I’ve literally never heard of anyone finding it offensive. If I’m incorrect, please correct me and I’ll refrain from the behavior (though I don’t think I’ve ever made a Jesus Howard joke myself…). There’s problems that exist (misogyny and other harassment in gaming) and there’s problems we can worry about that may or may not exist. If someone can open my eyes to systemic discrimination against atheists and Christians in their gaming groups, I’d be happy for it.
You’re telling me at a casual meetup I can’t talk to the people to the left and right of me?
Am I in crazy town here? I do this at tournaments. Isn’t the point of gaming to have fun and meet people?
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I do this as well, and I don’t think most people have an issue with it (I’ve never met one).
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But surely you’ll run afoul of their code of conduc-… wait, what? The ANRPC has a more professional and sensitive policy towards harassment than FFG’s OP?
Hm.
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Perhaps safest to stick to OCTGN. Never had issues with people there, right?
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I think it is offensive, but that doesn’t mean I don’t want you to do it. I probably have and will do it in the future, it’s a funny joke. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t offensive.
Personally, I don’t think everything I find offensive should be banned.
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There are three times to get to know people during a casual Netrunner night, IMO:
- While you’re playing a game with them.
- Between games.
- If they start talking to you during one of their games.
If you sit down next to me and introduce yourself while I’m taking my turn, I’m not going to be particularly amenable to conversing.
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I take it you’re a non-Christian. I mean, I wouldn’t expect you to notice it since you’re not subject to it, but the examples above (e.g. “Jesus Howard”) as well as the hyper-sexualization on many cards (Notoriety/Dirty Laundry), drive Christians away from the gaming community. I don’t think you’d call it offensive, but the assumption behind it that everyone finds it funny is still a problem. This is the same sort of problem, even if not to the same degree, that women have.
On another not, I’m really glad these uidelines are being set up, as though my sister hasn’t encountered bad behavior yet, I’d like her not to be driven away by something like this. (the worst thing so far was I was talking to an FFG employee about “my sibling” and they asked questions about “my brother”. It was funny and all, but certainly offputting.)
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You think it’s funny, personally, and find it offends you, personally?
It’s neat that you can derive pleasure from having someone jab your sensitivities. Can we agree, perhaps, that that’s your personal prerogative to tolerate that behavior and someone who has to deal with lots of environments where it’s officially tolerated for people to jab them without recrimination that we shouldn’t make them sit through that behavior when they’re playing a card game?
Without an example of the behavior in question, it’s a bit hard to discuss, but the very idea that “victim” (a strong word in most of the contexts we’re talking about) should not have to explain what conduct the other person was doing that they perceived as wrong seems dangerous. Reasonable people can always disagree, but there shouldn’t be this presumption that the person who was offended was offended by something other than their own unreasonable interpretation of behavior. There shouldn’t be this ultimate right to simply say you were offended by XYZ and have a TO step in and warn without at least citing the behavior and explaining what the issue was or else you risk stumbling too far into the realm of Guilty before proven Guilty.
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I think this is the part of the original post that a couple people are having issue grasping as a problem, and I think it comes from the fact that on the internet we have no concept of tone. I don’t personally think any of the questions posed here (who she was, what she does, how she go into Netrunner and such) constitute anything but friendly table talk, unless the tone was off.
I’m all for chatting with your opponent while you play, if they want to. I think assuming your opponent is okay with basic conversation is a fine assumption to make, and if someone doesn’t want to chat they can make it clear.
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It’s important, I think, to remember that due process before the law is an extremely valuable tennent of our legal system.
The stakes are not high here, and no one needs to die on the hill of Liberty or Death. If someone is offended by your behavior, it’s important to find out what the behavior was. It’s not important for you to then interrogate the person who was offended about why that action offended them, or maybe ask them if they knew you were kidding and jeeze can’t they take a joke? You realize you offended someone, you find out what you did that offended them, you apologize and stop doing it. It doesn’t matter if it’s behavior that you don’t personally find offensive or most people are totally fine with you doing. Just respect that someone else was upset and realize that all your jokes and idiosyncrasies don’t need to appear all the time. It’s ok to play through the rest of the game without your playmat/turn-of-phrase/conversation.
*edited to remove snark; no need for it here.
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