A) Toshiyuki Sakai
B) Exploratory Romp
C) Test Ground
D) Salvage
E) Record Reconstructor
F) Disrupter
G) Zed 1.0
H) Helium-3 Deposit
a) Sakai
i’ve heard a lot of people are claiming Sakai is not useless for a lot of misguided reasons. let me state this as clearly as possible: this card cannot do anything that the card you swapped it for could not have done. if you swapped Toshiyuki for Plan B, and the corp accessed Plan B, and you got to score an agenda, do not be bamboozled by the three-card-combo: had you just installed Plan B instead of Toshiyuki, they would have accessed it. he works with Back Channels (a card in the new pack). so does whatever card you would ostensibly swap him with if they accessed it. this card is, from a design standpoint, incapable of doing anything, and whenever you slot it, it’s like increasing the density of your deck by a card. if Leviathan breaks Orion for you one time, you have gotten more use out of it than any player hypothetically could get out of Sakai in any number of games over any period of time
b) exploratory romp - SCF has uses no that adj chro is out
c) the professor - hypothetically, test ground could derez an ice that makes mother goddess mythic only or something, IDK, it seems bad, but the professor is like a net negative to your deck. it is the only card i believe may be worse than Sakai, because while Sakai does nothing, the Professor sets you back before the game even starts and you don’t have the luxury of potentially not drawing it
d) salvage - if sunny was everywhere and playing her console with a billion link, people would actually play net police, which means there is a universe where Net Police can work, which is more than i can say for salvage
e) record reconstructor
f) disrupter
g) hard at work
h) helium-3 deposit
Toshiyuki does one thing that those cards don’t do, and that is safely bluff things. If you don’t feel like it’s safe to score an agenda, people are not going to expect you to play Sakai, so they may just run it. If you put an agenda down, they may just run on it, and that’s that. However, if you have a trap and an agenda in hand, you can easily test the waters, so to speak. People assume that everyone makes the same kind of decisions the same way, and that it’s simply not true. People tend to make up their mind about whether they’re going to run on something, so swap a trap. Don’t have a trap? Tutor one with executive boot camp (a good card by itself) and then that decision is much more complicated. There’s plenty of interesting jank to be pulled off with Sakai, so I don’t feel right writing him off like you are, though I do respect your opinion. Not the worst card by any means though, and you can always make him do something.
i’m sorry, but this doesn’t make any sense to me. it gives the illusion of sense by, “installing Sakai to be safe,” but in reality, whichever card you swap Sakai with is a card that would have been installed there and accessed previously
Sakai allows you to react to what your opponent has done during the turn. You have the option from amongst cards in your hand to swap him for whatever is appropriate at the time, an option you do not have if you choose to simply install a card on your turn.
So your black and white argument for Sakai is wrong. Is he a good card? No. But he provides options that you wouldn’t otherwise have.
2 Likes
He’s a combo heavy card, not wonderful, but not incapable of screwing with the runner. Any card you can iaa is a decent card in my book, especially if it makes the runner spend money. If you learn that the runner is going to run on all of your remotes no matter what, he has done his job.
Seriously, try it with ebc, there’s no way it’s as bad as people say in that light
i wasn’t trying to offend you when i said that he works with Back Channels the same way that any other card you’d have installed and advanced does, it just is a fact that he does work equivalently. my argument is not wrong
[quote=“Thesreyn, post:26, topic:4761”]
You have the option from amongst cards in your hand to swap him for whatever is appropriate at the time
[/quote]there is no practical application for this, and whichever card you DO swap him for is the card you’d have preferred been installed there. even after they access him, the card you swap him for is one they are now choosing to access or not access, which puts you in an identically similar do-i-don’t-i predicament you had when you decided to install Sakai, who gave the illusion of being safer than just putting an agenda or trap in the server
[quote=“cmcadvanced, post:27, topic:4761”]
He’s a combo heavy card
[/quote]there IS NO combo. the combo is an illusion manufactured by Sakai acting as a middleman
[quote=“cmcadvanced, post:27, topic:4761”]
Seriously, try it with ebc, there’s no way it’s as bad as people say in that light
[/quote]so, the idea is that you install Sakai, they proceed to access him, you fish a trap with EBC, and now they have to choose whether or not they want to access an advanced card after seeing you fish a trap with EBC. this is precisely the same as you fishing a trap with EBC and then installing and advancing a card (the card that would have otherwise been Sakai). the only difference is now your deck has 47 more cards, and none of them are Toshiyuki Sakai
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It’s a little more flexible. You could save the ebc for something else. He combos with Hudson, Alix and Gagarin. So, knowing all that, it’s obviously not amazing, but I can see a skilled player using him to good effect. Sometimes you just don’t want to put an agenda in a server cause it’s match point and you think the runner can get it, or you know they can, and they’ll run it even if it’s obvious the Corp would lose if it’s an agenda. That can win games. I’m just sticking up for the honor of this Japanese man, no offense taken. I do defend bad cards fairly often, I don’t know if you’ve heard, but everyone deserves a chance. Everyone. Then you get blackmailed.
1 Like
[quote=“cmcadvanced, post:29, topic:4761”]
He combos with Hudson, Alix and Gagarin
[/quote]this is true. i concede there is potential utility for Sakai with a few cards, and i’d actually be down to see someone pulling off the Hudson/Sakai combo (i talked about this with @eric_c whose favorite card after Whizzard is Hudson 1.0 yesterday).
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No offense was taken, I’m simply stating that your black and white opinion is wrong. Literally today I had Junebug, Overwriter, Sakai and Mushin, while my opponent had three cards in hand.
By using Mushin on Sakai, I am able to choose whether I will put down Overwriter or Junebug, depending on what the Runner decides to do during their turn. As it happened, they played Diesel and ran at Sakai. Had they not had 6 cards in hand, I would have swapped the Junebug. Instead I swapped for the Overwriter.
No other card than Sakai could give me that option. Again, that doesn’t make it good. But it provides a unique effect, and is certainly not a completely useless card.
2 Likes
SO you’re using Sakai to avoid having to come to the conclusion that a runner might draw up before running on a Mushin’d card.
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You know, maybe Hudson isn’t that bad of a choice in more decks than I think. Most runners try to win on multiaccess than remote lock I think, and Hudson can still protect a remote with oaktown grid with ash and an agenda pretty well, especially in Gagarin. Perhaps FFG thought Sakai, Alix, Patient, and Hudson were just differently weyland cards. Like how cache is blue, even though we know it’s really orange dammit.
[quote=“mendax, post:32, topic:4761”]
SO you’re using Sakai to avoid having to come to the conclusion that a runner might draw up before running on a Mushin’d card.[/quote]
Hey man, some times you don’t have the clicks and the runner has balls
No, I’m running Sakai because I’m testing him in a Back Channels deck, and because he gives me the option to play reactively on the Runner’s turn with various cards like Overwriter, Snare, Junebug, Plan B, and in one hilarious situation, a Fetal AI causing three net damage due to PE’s ability, followed by him dying to a scored Philo into accessing an agenda from my hand due to Gang Sign HQ Interface.
Shit card he might be, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t test him, or god forbid build a fun fucking deck.
you’ve been trying to create fringe hypothetical scenarios where you can gain utility with Sakai, but even these scenarios have no practical application
first, if the runner has three cards and plays Diesel then runs, they have five cards in hand, but assuming we’re missing a click-to-draw in this scenario which did happen earlier today, i will explain where you actually lose utility with Sakai
any situation in which you install a card and the Runner does not run is equivalent
the scenario in which you install Cerebral is equivalent
[quote=“Thesreyn, post:31, topic:4761”]
Had they not had 6 cards in hand, I would have swapped the Junebug
[/quote]so, admittedly, if they access with fewer than six cards, you swap Junebug with Sakai. you must concede, at this point, that had you just installed Junebug instead of Sakai while they were on fewer than six cards, you win the game, but if you install Sakai, you provide the Runner with the option to avoid damage entirely, making decisions knowing your deck is filthy with Project Junebugs. the downside to this plan is that if they draw up to six cards, you merely deal six net damage
even i have conceded there are fringe utility benefits to Sakai with other cards, but the purest uses of his ability are not among them
[quote=“Thesreyn, post:34, topic:4761”]
No, I’m running Sakai because I’m testing him in a Back Channels deck, and because he gives me the option to play reactively on the Runner’s turn with various cards like Overwriter, Snare, Junebug, Plan B
[/quote]you must realize that Back Channels and Plan B are totally redundant cards with Sakai. any time the runner accesses Sakai → Plan B, it is the same as the Runner just accessing Plan B when you install it instead of Sakai. the only difference is that if you swap Sakai for Plan B and the runner does not access it, Sakai has actually robbed you of a Plan B. swapping Sakai for Plan B can only be negative utility in any situation
my opinion is not wrong, you are indignant; no one ever told you that you weren’t encouraged to test a card you liked or build whatever deck you prefer to enjoy the game with. this is a thread where we point out why bad cards are bad, i was never trying to offend you if you like this card
i mean Sakai is all weird and questionable as to whether it does anything (and none of it really very good), but can there be any justifiable reason Leviathan exists?
it’s 6c to install, and every time you use it, you’re spending 3, 6, or 9 credits.
every time you spend ‘only’ 3c, you’re better off with almost any other decoder. the only code gates with potentially more than 2 subs and 3 or less strength is Ireress and Salvage of all things (two of the most useless ICE in the game)
any time you spend 6, more than often than not, you’re way better off having used Gordian, Passport, Rex, especially Cyber-Cypher
also, Lotus Field says hi.
any time you spend 9, you’re breaking a Tollbooth, and you’re making an already taxing ICE even more taxing.
on top of all of that, it’s 6 effing credits to install. even on the few ICE you do save on breaking (Orion is probably its best matchup), you’re still worse off until after you’ve broken them a few times when you consider the install cost.
Leviathan is a bad card and will always be bad. i rate Toshi higher because he at least some scenarios where he does something (even if that something is effectively nothing), because doing nothing is better than actively throwing your credits down the toilet just to pretend that Leviathan could be useful some day.
1 Like
You’re responding to a post that wasn’t a response to yours.
I never said you don’t lose utility because of the Runner’s option to not access the card. I’m saying that Sakai provides a unique capability, and you’re ignoring the idea that dealing six net damage isn’t furthering your own game plan.
Takai IS a fringe card, he specifically works in fringe situations, and they obviously have practical applications, because they’re an action in the game.
The entire point I am making is that Sakai gives you options that you wouldn’t otherwise have. Does he lose you utility? Yes, but he also gains you utility. Are there situations where playing him as opposed to playing another card is incorrect? Absolutely.
I’ve pointed out plenty of times already that he is a bad card, but I’ve also shown situations where he can shine. At no point did I say that he was good, nor did I say that these situations were common. I’m well aware of the problems with the card, and I’m also aware of the unique situations that it creates.
This is only true if you look at these two cards in a vacuum. By swapping you retain the ability to use Sakai, and thanks to Back Channels even if they don’t access your Plan B you haven’t actually lost utility. And what of the situations where they do? Or where you swap for another relevant card? Sakai is an odd card that creates weird variance and greater bluffing potential for your deck and playstyle. He’s also bad. But he is not always a strict loss of utility, which is the claim you were making. Now you’ve accepted that there are situations in which Sakai isn’t a strict loss, so my original point - that your black and white view of him was wrong - is correct.
i get it. you like to play Toshiyuki Sakai. the idea that you still, at this moment, will not concede that your plan of Sakai -> Plan B is inherently flawed and negative utility vs. just installing Plan B in every scenario is quite telling
Good things about Sakai, and why they’re not so good:
He can let you score an agenda after the runner runs him. But, the runner can prevent this by making it a personal rule to always access the card you swap Sakai with.
He can let you use a non-advanceable trap as an advanceable trap. But, Mushin does this better.
He can let you change your mind about which trap to give the runner if the circumstances change. But, runners usually only run an advanced card the turn it is advanced, and if they don’t run it then, they never run it at all. (This gives me an idea about government takeover. Mushin it out, and if they don’t run it, just leave it there like a failed trap and you have reduced your agenda density).
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It isn’t. For example, if they run him without drawing up, and you mindgame the runner into accessing, you can kill them with Junebug. If you mindgame the runner into not accessing, you can switch it with Ronin. If they draw up, but are last click, and you mindgame them into accessing, you can Plan B out an easy agenda. If you mindgame them into not accessing, you can put out a Mandatory upgrades or something.
Each of those individual situations is worse than installing the corresponding agenda/asset, in some cases by quite a bit, but Toshi gives you the flexibility to choose which of those situations you want. It seems to me your argument could also be applied to Special Order - playing special order and then installing the icebreaker is much worse than just installing the breaker, so obviously Special Order is completely useless, you might as well have an extra copy of the breaker instead. Or savoir-faire - you’re paying 2c extra, why not just install the program in the first place, without paying the 2c?
Of course, this all hinges on your ability to play the mindgame, and it in fact approximately doubles the chance that you fail (because the runner has to both choose the run it and choose to access it (or not)). However, if you’re playing a opponent both bad at game theory and mindgames, you could use him to give yourself flexibility if that’s what you need most. (for example, the first mindgame about whether to run him or not could be dealt with by advancing, and then using trick of light to get rid of the counters, which in most cases means you won’t be hurt by it).
I’m surprised a player as good as you doesn’t see that flexibility is worth more than nothing.
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there is one and only one scenario in which Sakai does something (rather than nothing). runner runs on an advanced sakai, and you swap for an unadvanceable trap like snare or edge of the world, which the runner chooses to access. In this case, Sakai allowed you to advance in order to bait the run, which you could not have done with the unadvanceable trap alone.
That said, Mushin does this infinitely better, and on top of that even this scenario is extremely narrow and very rarely useful compared to using either mushin or an advanceable trap.
In any and every other scenario he is universally inferior to simply installing the card you planned on swapping instead.
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