Fear and Loathing Set Review & Playtesting Guide

[hypomodern]

Oh, I know :).

[Alexfrog]

@PeekaySK

Oh, and one more thing re: Tallie that I just realized - her ability is optional. The text pretty clearly states “Whenever a gray ops or black ops operation is trashed after resolving, you may give the Corp 1 bad publicity and take 1 tag.”, you don’t have to trigger it.

That basically means that most of Alex’s reasoning for why she shouldn’t be played outside of tag-me is completely void, and if nothing else, you can consider her a Deus X-like counter to Cleaner Scorching, double-Punitives and multi-EMP. Using her to stop Subliminals will still require more of a dedicated build, though.

Nope, and I even talked about the fact that she was optional in the review.

[PeekaySK]

@Alexfrog

Nope, and I even talked about the fact that she was optional in the review.

Why the conclusion that she’s only fit for tag-me, then? Wouldn’t she be best in decks that actually have a plan to handle the tag(s), rather than live with them?

(apologies if I seem confrontational or something - not my intention. It just looks like there’s some link in your chain of logic that I’m missing, and I’m trying to find out what it is)

[zeroisnine]

@striatic

I also made one serious play error that reduced my opinion of Hemorrhage significantly, and that was putting a Pop-Up Window in front of a San San City grid. The runner trashed the San San and thus had a remote they could successfully run on whenever they wanted for 1 credit [and providing me a credit]. Despite being able to add simultaneous virus counters to x2 Hemorrhage for one click and one credit a turn, their Hemorrhages stalled out, Astroscript was scored by Biotic, and the Runner had invested so much energy in the early HQ pressure that they had no R&D lock answer for the mandatory draw, then purge/spend turn drawing/score agenda cycle.

To be frank, that sounds like a terrible play on the Runner’s part. The simple fact is that they spent 1 click and 1 credit to give you 1 credit and lose 1 card with no other potential upside. A Runner’s click is worth more than a Corporation’s card. The entire point is that in addition to everything awesome about making runs you get to force the Corporation to discard a card is the upside of Hemorrhage. Not that it suddenly makes bad plays like running into a Pop-Up window that protects absolutely nothing into good plays.

[zeroisnine]

@Kingsley

Why would Noise ever want to pay 4 for 2 memory? He can instead pay 2 for 2 memory and infinite Virus tutoring (Djinn), or pay 3 for 2 memory and an extra virus counter.

Most Noise decks that need more memory should run Djinn if they aren’t already. If your deck has 3 Grimoire and 3 Djinn and it still needs more memory, it’s probably just bad IMO.

To be honest, the extra virus counter is neat, but not gamebreaking. The real reason why you play Grimoire is the 2 memory. Relying on Djinn good, but problematic if you want to play 4 memory of icebreakers (or 3 memory and a Parasite/Caissa) and also makes you more vulnerable to program destruction. Grimoire is also terrible in duplicates, i.e., you can’t play another one if you have one out. Djinn is basically unplayable in duplicates since at some point I’m likely going to tutor for a Parasite with it.

So considering them both as 1 individual card in isolation, yes they are both better than Cybersolutions Mem Chip. However, since neither play well in multiples and you typically want both for Noise (at least I typically want both for Noise), it is better than both in the times where you draw a second Djinn or a second Grimoire. The value of the second copy of a card is just as important of a factor as the first copy of the card especially if you are running the full set.

TBH though, I wouldn’t run it in Anarch because even considering all that the influence is better spent on other things. If it were neutral, I’d probably replace Grimore #3 and maybe even #2 with it and maybe Cyberfeeder #3. Presuming, I was running 3x of them before hand (and I currently am).

[zeroisnine]

@striatic

i assume you are joking, but many variants would rather spend the 3 influence on 3 GLCs, 3 Beanstalks, 3 Rototurrets, 2 Caduceuses, 1 Biotic Labor - and with TWIY variants specifically there’s 3 less influence to work with.

Not much to say, if you don’t need the barrier and would rather tax Corroder, then you don’t need the barrier and you’d rather tax Corroder.

However, I would note that running Wraparound over Bastion effectively nets you a another set of Green Level Clearances, since playing Green Level Clearance nets you 2 credits for a click and running Wraparound instead of Bastion nets you 2 credits for a click. Also, it’s interesting that previously you bring up Chimera + Bastion, since as far as synergy goes Chimera + Wraparound seems better. Chimera is weak to AI breakers, Wraparound is strong to AI breakers.

[striatic]

I guess I should be more clear. It wasnt that the Runner actually ran the open remote, just that they were able to. They didn’t. My point is that it wasn’t worth it.

I’ve seen many runners run Archives simply to prime Datasucker on the way to winning games. Hemorrahage doesn’t have that power.

[Alexfrog]

@PeekaySK

Why the conclusion that she’s only fit for tag-me, then? Wouldn’t she be best in decks that actually have a plan to handle the tag(s), rather than live with them?

Having a deck that can live with tags is the best way to handle tags, if you know that you are going to invite tags upon yourself.

You dont want Tallie in a deck that is vulnerable to tags and removes them.

Imagine that you have a Kati Jones with money on her, and a Tallie. I play a Subliminal Messaging.
Do you take a tag to give me bad pub? If you do I can kill Kati. So you decide not to. As a result, I got away with playing a Grey Ops event while Tallie was in play.

The anarch tagme build is already probably the best anarch deck. You steal their money and hit them with Data Leak Reversal, use Joshua B, and now possibly add Tallie into the mix. For other Anarch decks I doubt she will work out.

[zeroisnine]

@striatic

I guess I should be more clear. It wasnt that the Runner actually ran the open remote, just that they were able to. They didn’t. My point is that it wasn’t worth it.

I’ve seen many runners run Archives simply to prime Datasucker on the way to winning games. Hemorrahage doesn’t have that power.

Sure, but if you have Desperado, it’s not a good play to run on an empty remote guarded by a Pop-Up window either. And Desperado is, ahem, a decent card I hear.

My point is that your example is non-instructive towards evaluating the card’s value. I’m not arguing that the card is better than Datasucker. But even in terms of raw resources, having two Datasuckers out and running against a Pop-Up window is a neutral exchange. You gain 2 virus counters which typically equates to 2 credits for most breakers. But you lose 1 credit and the Corp gains 1 credit. This is neglecting the click you spent for that run as well.

What if there was no Pop-Up window? Yes, Hemorrhage would still not be good. Of course, Desperado would be meaningless and Datasucker would be debatable (sometimes you might rather have the credit than the counter). What if you have Desperado + Hemorrhage? Or Datasucker + Hemorrhage? To be honest, I think those would actually be very strong plays, and in a vacuum would be better than 2x Datasucker or Desperado + Datasucker, since it actually has the possibility of scoring an agenda.

[striatic]

There is a difference between gaining a credit by spending a credit and a click, than spending a credit and a click to do something otherwise impossible to do.

[zeroisnine]

@striatic

There is a difference between gaining a credit by spending a credit and a click, than spending a credit and a click to do something otherwise impossible to do.

Fair enough. Of course, now your example involves Mimic (or Yog or whatever) and a Sentry with a strength greater than 3 protecting something important. Which takes us far from your initial example of “Pop-Up Window on an empty remote server” into something far more complicated. Not an irrelevant example by any means, but I’m not sure what that is exactly supposed to show. Is Datasucker a better card to assist in breaking Ice than Hemorrhage? Well, yes. And I suppose, if that’s what you are trying to get at then, I agree.

[PeekaySK]

@Alexfrog OK, now I see where you’re coming from. You see her primarily as a BP delivery mechanism, whereas I see her primarily as a flatline prevention tool. The BP part is there to make the flatline prevention work, and it also creates some nice side effects (like, a synergy with Raymond/Blackmail), but it’s not its main use to me. If I wanted to trade a tag for a BP, I’d go with Activist support that is both cheaper and pro-active.

@Alexfrog

Imagine that you have a Kati Jones with money on her, and a Tallie. I play a Subliminal Messaging.Do you take a tag to give me bad pub?

(the following is written from a perspective of “not playing tag-me”, the other alternative I think we can agree on)

Of course I don’t* - Subliminal isn’t why I’m playing Tallie. That’s why I’m so happy she doesn’t trigger automatically. To my eyes, she’s like a Plascrete - it’s something you run if you’re worried about Punitive Counterstrike, Neural EMP and the like. As a side note, she makes the Breaking News/Closed Accounts play less devastating too - either the corp needs an extra action to trash her first, or you’ll get a BP, which will get you back to running faster, and will let you run cheaper.

*- unless I think you really need your 3 actions that turn, to score an agenda you installed or something. Then, triggering her might be good (but that would only happen against bad Corp players, really).

All of this is functionality that simply isn’t there in tag-me… that’s why I think she’s better outside of it, or at the very least “comparable, but different”.

Some things to consider for the future:

• Tallie will only get better if people start playing NAPD contract en masse, essentially turning that (otherwise very strong) agenda into an inferior version of Fetal AI whenever she triggers. I’m expecting to see NAPD in decks that don’t get BP natively (duh), and therefore won’t be packing BP removal, either (duh #2). That might make the option to inflict it upon them for playing Grey Ops (which they very well might be packing) very valuable, to the point where I conceivably would trigger her for Subliminals and the like.
• If House of Knives and similar become all the rage, runners will probably find themselves in double-EMP territory way more often than they do now. That’s another situation where she’ll shine, I think: you’ll essentially have to either get rid of her first, wait for 3 EMPs (and 6 credits on hand), or bait the runner into wasting her in some other fashion.

(ok, I’ll shut up about the petite blonde now, promise! )

[prozz]

can u link to napd spoiler please? cant find it on netrunnerdb.

[PeekaySK]

@prozz

can u link to napd spoiler please? cant find it on netrunnerdb.

Here you go:

[Arkhon]

Toshiyuki Sakai has one fringe use: he combos well with Plan B (and an agenda in hand).

Given that the runner has already decided to access the first time in the knowledge that it could be a trap, mindgame #2 is fairly moot because he should be accessing again (unless he’s seen your whole hand and knows you have nothing but ambushes). Normally this would make Toshiyuki utterly useless, but Plan B means you can slip in an ambush, safe in the knowledge that it will score you an agenda if it’s accessed or leave you advancement counters for Trick of Light if it’s not.

I don’t know that this is an especially strong play, but it’s something plausible.
I don’t think it warrants changing this card’s rating either - it might do if Jinteki get an operation in H&P that’s like a Super-ToL that allows them to move around all the advancement counters.

[PeekaySK]

@Arkhon

Toshiyuki Sakai has one fringe use: he combos well with Plan B (and an agenda in hand).

–snip–

Problem is… what’s the added benefit Sakai-san provides here? Wouldn’t just playing Plan B in the first place achieve the exact same result? All he does is be useful before you hit the number of advancement counters you need, and then we’re talking about an advancement count low enough to survive in case of access (which is why the runner will access, like you stated).

[Alexfrog]

@PeekaySK

To my eyes, she’s like a Plascrete - it’s something you run if you’re worried about Punitive Counterstrike, Neural EMP and the like.

Tallie doesnt save you from punitive counterstrike, or Neural EMP, or Scorched Earth, or anything like that. When the corp plays those cards you are dead, and Tallie doesnt matter.

Closed Accounts is relevant, but youre going to be at $0 and have another tag. Subliminal Messaging is by far the most relevant card, because it actually gets played repeatedly throughout a game.

[Sirprim]

@Alexfrog

Tallie doesnt save you from punitive counterstrike, or Neural EMP, or Scorched Earth, or anything like that. When the corp plays those cards you are dead, and Tallie doesnt matter.

How does she not matter? You play the EMP, take a bad pub and then I draw a card with her, basically negating your EMP…

[Alexfrog]

@Sirprim

How does she not matter? You play the EMP, take a bad pub and then I draw a card with her, basically negating your EMP…

Good point! I take it back.

I keep forgetting about that draw power.

So she acts as +1 Hand size vs Neural EMPs. That will definitely be interesting once the Jinteki box comes out.

So how about this:

Tallie is useful in a tagme Anarch, or as a defense against Neural EMPs in Jinteki. (But if you dont have a Plascrete, and they have a Scorch, it wont save you from the Neural EMPs).

[PeekaySK]

@Sirprim Could it be that our (subliminal) message finally got through to Alex?

@Alexfrog

So she acts as +1 Hand size vs Neural EMPs.

Not just EMPs, any kill method that needs 2 Gray/Black ops and where an extra card in the runner’s hand matters. Turns out it’s most of them, except for a 4+ point Punitive and other fringe cases.