FFG Floor Rules

So, there seems to be some pretty variable ideas of when it makes sense to split.@, and I’d just like to point a couple things out.

At philly, there were 7 reds cut top 8 with 80 people. 11-3 made the cut clean, 10-4 On SOS. I started 8-0 and round 5 go paired against someone 7-1. I can safely id to top 8, my opponent can’t. What’s more, I can’t even know if my next twO opponents will be willing to id and in a spot to do so.

I sweep, and get paired up against someone who is 9-1. Now we can both id to the toP, but there is again no guarantee for my opponent that his last round opponent will be willing to draw (he is the only 9-1, so there’s a decent shot his opponent will be 9-3 and unable to split safely, which ends up being the case).

We split, last round it get paired against someone who is 9-3, who can’t id with me safely either.

So in a pretty major tournament, there was not only no chance for someone I do the ridiculous multiround id, but not even a chance for a safe id whatsoever.

I suspect opportunities for safe multi round ids are pretty rare, accept at very Large tournaments with large cuts.

Also, not allowing ids hurts people who don’t know as many people. Last round, I need 1 win for the cut. I win game 1. I can guarantee you I’m not tryharding against someone I know. I would feel terrible knocking them out, and I’m just going to preserve my energy and play a lAzy game. I’d probably still do this against a lesser opponent, but definitely not gonna do it against a friend.

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It sounds more like the steroid in sports debate to me.

People will do it anyways. So banning it just hurts those that play fairly and helps the steroid users.

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There’s a difference between what we’d like to happen and what actually will happen, or has happened. Ideally, no-one would ID. However, since ID-ing does happen, and is near impossible to police, we are on a practical level better off allowing IDs within the current tournament structure.

Personally, I would whole-heartedly support moving to a single-game structure so that this whole question becomes irrelevant.

This thread is tremendously disheartening. I believe that whether ID should or should not be illegal is a secondary point right now. The primary issue I have is with people who are openly and proudly admitting to Intentionally Drawing. It is explicitly clear that under the current rules that such behavior is cheating. Regardless of how fair or appropriate a rule is, when you enter a tournament you are consenting to abide by the rules of that given tournament. This is a social obligation we all enter into and breaking it goes against the entire spirit and purpose of friendly competition. How difficult it is for a third party to catch cheaters is far less important to me than people having the integrity not to cheat in the first place. For. Whatever. Reason. If you do not agree with the terms of a given event, then do not play in the event.

I really cant accept any justification for cheating as valid. I’m open to argument and discussion about changing rules that aren’t appropriate in the future, but as it stands ID is cheating. This issue just puts a pit in my stomach and really depresses my outlook for competitive Netrunner in the future.

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This makes a lot of sense to me and seems like a reasonable way to think about it.

I’ve seen/heard a few people suggest that the lower half of the cut (5-8 for top 8, 9-16 for top 16) should simply be placed in losers bracket from the get-go. So instead of playing seed 8, seed 1 would be matched up against seed 4 in the Winners Bracket in the first round of elimination, while seed 5 would play seed 8 in the Losers Bracket in the first round. It definitely gives a very, very real incentive to place in the upper half of the cut, while simultaneously cutting 1 round from the elimination games, which makes the tournament shorter and makes it easier to run events in one day without them being mental marathons. I don’t know how to feel about it. How about you guys? Too extreme, perhaps?

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The first problem I see is people getting knocked out of the elims by only playing one side. If we’re in a meta where runners are strong and you get stuck as corp for the first round of the elims in the loser’s bracket, then tough luck.

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It would happen more often; but it does happen already. I don’t have a solid opinion one way or the other on whether its fair or not.

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First, I’d like to thank @ericbtool, @SimonMoon, and @mendax for their posts.

Sasha,

I may have misread, but I don’t believe anyone has proudly admitted to intentionally splitting, rather I made it clear I had never done so except once in the GLC finals where it was explicitly permitted. You may be referring to my lobbying for ignoring the rule, which I continue to stand by. I’m surprised enough that it’s appalled you so that I believe you misunderstand where it’s coming from. I would not have posted again were you not giving me the impression you believe my cause to be sinister.

I don’t believe intentional draws are good or bad for the game. That’s really not for me to decide, and it’s not something I particularly care about. My entire intention in promoting intentional splits is to create a level playing field for all players. I’ve never been interested in free wins or easier routes to winning a tournament. On the contrary, anyone who knows me can attest to the fact that I’m specifically against anything that inhibits the best competition. In the final round of the Chicago regionals, I let my opponent take back a run on archives he’d have had to make through a Crick after having revealed the hidden portion. He told me I could install with the Crick, but I allowed him to retroactively jack out. I have, on countless occasions, let players rez their assets late after drawing, or take back the installing of breakers. In the final game of the same regional, we realized I was over MU after having already come back under MU. I retroactively trashed a program and drew to the final card in my deck to recur it and finish the game. In ChiLo, I let spags retroactively click for a credit after going through R&D with only 3 credits remaining (the ICE was face up). In the PSI games, I let my opponent that eliminated me take back his turn after passing to me, because he had missed the winning play (I let him take back a turn to eliminate me). I would never, under any circumstances, want to win a tournament for any reason I could question the legitimacy of my win over after.

It is from this perspective that I propose the intentional splitting rule be applied such that it is fair to everyone. There is the idealist philosophy that no players will ever split intentionally, and there is the pragmatic one that all players may split intentionally. I’ve never at any point believed there are inherent benefits to intentional splitting; the ethics of the rule are not my concern. It is purely from a fair, competitive standpoint that I wish every player be offered the same options.

Looking at the opinions of some here, perhaps it is just my perspective that has caused me to believe intentional splitting is more common than it is. Understand that my perspective is merely one of a player who has been playing only this year, and only in tournaments for less than half of it. In an environment where only 5% of players split, I believe it makes sense to try to be honest and police the rule to the best of the community’s ability. Conversely, in one where 95% of players are amenable to the idea of splitting, I believe it is easier for the remainder to assume they have the same options as the dishonest players. Knowing now that it may be less common than I had originally perceived (I was under the impression the majority of players near the top were amenable to splitting), my opinion may be altered, but I will resume lobbying that the best, and only completely fair application of the rule is one that allows both honest and dishonest players the same opportunities.

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I’d just like to say that I am greatly encouraged by the care our community is putting into this discussion. Everyone here is fighting for a fun game, an even playing field, and a system that benefits playing with integrity. We can’t control what FFG’s rules are, but we can control the character of our community: fun-loving, competitive, and gracious. Never change, y’all.

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https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/spolicy/

FFG has introduced Organized Play Participant Suspension Policy and the guy who won GenCon Conquest tournament ended up as the only (so far) player on the list, banned from competitive play in all FFG games until August 2020.

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Saw that. That’s gotta be super awkward, having your name as the only person on a list spanning multiple games. It’s like FFG made the “No John Payne Club.” Everyone is invited! Absolutely everyone! Ever! … Except you, specifically.

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5 years suspension, that is harsh. Does it include his sock puppet?

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It’s reasonable because of what he did. It’s not a lifelong ban but it’s long enough to be a serious ban, which is definitely appropriate.

The Suspension Policy is only a good thing for the game and was a long time coming. Previously there was no way to stop known cheaters from entering FFG events, and this solves the problem.

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For cheating at that level? I think it’s probably about right. It needs to really sting, because that sort of behaviour ruins the game for a huge number of people. It threatens to undermine the entire tournament scene. A lifelong ban wouldn’t have been completely out of the question (can you really ever trust this guy not to cheat a tournaments again, given his behaviour?), but I’m glad they’ve decided that after five years they’ll offer back some trust that he won’t try to screw everyone over again.

I agree, my biggest complaint is really that they should have had this policy before they did worlds. If he had known beforehand what the punishment is he might not have tried it. And the guy coming second might have won fair and square, instead of this half-victory.

It was a nationals, but sure. We forget that ffg is new to the competitive scene and is still learning

That is wonderfully optimistic.

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prisons are empty indeed.

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