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GRNDL: What are we missing?

No, weyland’s big strength was that they were the richest, had solid etr ice and packed scorch. Other corps get more money than them, their ice comparitively got worse as more, stronger ice got printed, and everyone knows to play around scorch because it is literally the only trick weyland has. CI can import sea scorch, have more money, pull off the combo better (biotics and archived memories, get scorched through 3 plascretes) and still fa as a backup plan. Anything weyland can do, other factions do better.

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I consider “CI is faddish” to be MUCH more likely an explanation for current results than “CI is fundamentally better than both Weyland identities.”

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It’s not that it’s fundamentally better, it’s that HB cards are way better than Weyland cards, and it’s very difficult to kill a good player with Scorched in Weyland because it can be seen from a hundred miles away.

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I would point out that it’s a ton easier to Scorch someone when you have infinite recursion.

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And the multiple octgn datasets showing weylands winrate plunging against the relevant runners, those are just because of fads too right?

Any combo that relies on non-agenda pieces is probably better in CI.Your hand doesn’t get clogged, you have infinite recursion in faction, one of the most powerful economies (matched only by etf), in faction click gain and you only need to defend two servers, with a token defense on archives in most matchups.

But let’s include other decks that weyland can put together.

Rush: NBN does it better, wraparound stops early crypsis, astro puts away the game at 4 points

Glacier: HB has better ice, better money cards and upgrades that either let you brute force agendas. RP has caprice, amazing economy options, and 3 pointers that protect themselves in R&D. Not taking bp also helps this strategy a lot

Kill the datasucker: Jinteki has komainu, non-yogable codegates and shock, all of which makes the strategy stronger.

There is a reason weyland was below 40% against both criminals in fear and loathing, and I don’t see anything to tell me they are pulling out of the nose dive. GRNDL might be slightly better, but it still has to use the weyland cards.

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For the record, this is the current version of Supermodernism:

ID: GRNDL

Agendas

False Lead x2

Geothermal Fracking x3

Government Contracts x1

Hostile Takeover x3

Project Atlas x3

Assets

Snare! x3 (6inf)

ICE

Archer x3

Chimera x2

Enigma x3

Grim x3

Ice Wall x3

Wall of Static x3

Operations

Anonymous Tip x2 (2inf)

Hedge Fund x3

Power Shutdown x2

Restructure x3

Scorched Earth x3

SEA Source x1 (2 inf)

Subliminal Messaging x3


49 Cards - 6 Jinteki Influence / 4 NBN Influence

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Having played five games with GRNDL against my wife yesterday, I think I now know how he does it. Here’s my summary of lessons:

  • You don’t want to waste time playing econ early - most of your econ should come off of agendas. This is why the 10 starting credits are so important (10 is enough for WoS, Snare, and still have enough for a Hostile score to get back up into Snare territory). The opening hand wants to be ICE over Econ, as ICE leads to scored agendas, which are econ.
  • Archers and Grims aren’t impossible to handle, but they’re impossible to handle early and repeatedly. One fully connected Archer often slows the runner enough to win, one fully broken Archer often ruins the runner economically long enough to win. Don’t hesitate to rez an Archer for a 2-pointer if it will connect and/or bankrupt the runner, you’re getting at least 4 points off of that situation
  • BP scares no-one. Seriously, don’t give a damn about it. It works to your benefit in a way - seeing they have much BP and they need to go fast, the runners will often “cheat” by skipping on building a solid econ… hello, gas leaks!
  • Snares are there to make RnD and HQ more dangerous, don’t do remote plays if you could score agendas with that time. Use the fact that the runner knows you have snares to store face-down agendas in less-than-impenetrable servers (without advancing them), they usually won’t get run (especially useful if you get agenda-f**ked with an insecure HQ
  • The game is won and lost for you with HQ accesses way more than RnD accesses. You run Archers and Grims - Emergency Shutdown MUST be a dead card for the runner. Ice up Archives before the runner even thinks about Sneakdooring, preferrably with Grim or Archer. That way, if he drops it and uses it, he’ll probably just get one use out of it
  • Don’t use Chimera on a central. Like, ever (this is thinking 101 but I see people do this wrong all the time). It’s either there to be the bottomest ice on the scoring remote, or in front of an Archer (to eat Inside Jobs). Don’t ever put it in a position where it opens you up to attrition runs!
  • Build scoring remotes with Inside Job and Femme in mind. Don’t try to score with less than 2 ICE, the points you give up will usually cost you the game by way of random hail mary runs into RnD
  • Pretend Project Atlas is a 4/2. Don’t play it as a blank unless it’s points 6 and 7. If you can get a 2-counter Atlas, do it!!!
  • False Lead is way more useful than it appears at first. Play it indistinguishably from Atlases (i.e. install-advance), to make it harder for the runner to judge whether to try getting in
  • Don’t get too mind-locked on smoking the runner. If you can do a play that will kill the runner if they don’t drop a carapace on their turn, but will set you back if they do, it’s probably not worth it.

That about sums it up. Going to take the deck to our league night and see how I do there against the field. I may have some more lessons to add to this afterwards :slight_smile:

I considered mentioning that, but arguably, Grim helps all factions equally.

(why oh why didn’t Swarm start with one sub already? :D)

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You’re forgetting Project Atlas. Each Atlas token is a piece of your combo that is effectively always in your hand, but immune to Imp. If you’re close enough, it can also be the Hostile Takeover you need to win the game, making it a slower but less demanding Beale.

Atlas is probably the best agenda in the game, after AstroScript.

In CI, Agendas are a liability. In GRNDL, they’re… not? Not nearly so much. Half of your Agendas in Supermodernism threaten murder. The other half boost your economy.

Like, Rush and Glacier aren’t what to do! Those aren’t the only options! Build one scoring server that is solid. One. Three Ice deep, three different kinds if possible. They won’t run it too easily, if they do, you can handle it. Worst-case, Knight+Knight+Inside Job. Break them, replenish Ice.


Regarding the list posted – I’d take the Cleaners over Government Contracts, because it makes double-Scorched kill through one Plascrete and five cards. It’s a much better threat than slow econ trickle.


EDIT: Peekay, from my partner that plays GRNDL, HQ accesses/Emergency Shutdown is less of a worry. That might be a local meta call, but the reported experience is that HQ accesses are harder for non-Crims to deal with, and tend to be of less benefit. He’ll refuse to rez Ice until they’re doing something he cares about – risking an even chance of Agenda/Snare for HQ or R&D, but blocking an Account Siphon or Indexing. Found the opposite experience interesting.

As hoobajoo said once (paraphrased): “I want a deck where I can show the list to my opponent before the game, tell them what I’m planning on, and they still can’t do anything to stop me.”

Flatline is not Plan A. Flatline is Plan B. Scoring Agendas is Plan A, because if they slow down enough to be safe, you win. If they don’t – Plan B!

And yeah, Atlas is amazing. If you have two Atlas counters (from one overscored, or from two separate ones), you win two turns after you hit 5 points, probably. Maaaybe three. That’s some pressure, right there.

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Didn’t I devote one whole bullet-point to it? :stuck_out_tongue:

re: current version
From my experiments, Fast Track is more than a suitable substitute for Anonymous Tip - thus freeing influence for one super-nasty Code Gate (my favorite at the moment is Inazuma, though Tollbooth also works). It also nicely solves those odd games where you just can’t draw into an Atlas to start the tutoring or a Hostile to turn on the Archers. Also, I can actually save Atlas counters for other uses.

(and it has the benefit of luring people into Snare-ful HQs)

I think Anon Tip is still the safer pick here. With Grim and Archer along with a relatively low ice count, Anon Tip gets you the ice you need to build the remote. If you’re spending the influence on Inazuma (which I like), it actually doesn’t help solve this problem either.

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But that’s just the thing - Fast Track turns on Archers, of which there are three. This deck’s major threat comes online once you have an agenda to forfeit. Before that, the ICE is pretty flimsy. Fast Track gives me better consistency to get to that state.

That definitely seems better to me than drawing 2 extra cards, which could easily be stuff I can’t use at the moment and will just end up having to discard (which is what I’ve had happen quite often, when I was experimenting with the Anon Tip version).

Or, to look at it in a different way. So, I’m not drawing ICE. What am I drawing?

  • Agendas - the worst case scenario is that I’m drawing the agendas that aren’t immediately useful without a decent scoring remote (Fracking, Cleaners, possibly Atlas). I feel like Fast Track helps more here, as Anon Tip would leave me overdrawing, and what am I discarding? Surely not agendas.
  • Economy - I actually had a game like this yesterday. Was drawing all the Hedges and Restructures, instead of cards I actually needed. Still, it worked out mostly OK, as I didn’t need to score Hostile/Fracking to threaten a Scorch kill.
  • Scorches and SEA Source - grab a Hostile to force a run and/or get into trace town, money-wise.

I dunno, it just seems to me like most of the issues that would be solved by drawing 2 extra random cards are better solved by tutoring for a Hostile, since you can score it ICEless. That there’s extra synergy with both Fracking and Atlas (as they’re essentially both 4/2s), as well as Snares (and potentially forcing a run for SEA) seems like too good a benefit to ignore. Once you add the fact that you’re freeing up 20% of your total influence, it’s less of a trade-off and more of a no-brainer, really.
(at least for me)

edit: I’ll have to try adding the second SEA with that influence instead of Inazuma - die, stupid Kati!

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I need to get my article up post-haste. You all are SO DANG CLOSE. This deck is about choices, and maintaining control of them…

I actually haven’t played against GRNDL Supermodernism (no one has a cute, shortened phrase for this archetype yet?), but seeing two BABW at my last Regional made me smile. PADman had no problems. Had more money the entire game, and cycled for Plas. Deus handled Snares. One opponent got to 4 points, which was fine. Didn’t score again.

I agree with the assessment that Weyland is farthest back in the Corp race. Blue Sun will give some interesting, new variants, which should help.

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Worth noting, I suppose… We had three Supermodernism players at our 39-player Regional. The BABW variant had to leave early and dropped from the tourney, but the two GRNDL variants finished 3rd and 10th overall. Weyland’s always been one of my favorite factions and I tend to agree that they’re falling behind the power curve compared to the other Corp factions right now… but I do believe they remain quite viable in the competitive scene.

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That bit was directed at SamRS, I started my reply before yours posted. Hence the edit to respond to what you had to say as well. :stuck_out_tongue:

so what’s the secret to getting your wife to play with you?

asking for a friend. :wink:

Can’t speak for Peekay, but for me… A lot of patience and a custom playmat with all the servers labelled. The most difficult part to teaching my wife the game was terminology. She picked up all the mechanisms and actions pretty easily once everything was labelled and on the table for her. In fact, it was quite simple to teach her this after teaching her the A Game of Thrones LCG a year prior. Now it seems inevitable that we get matched up in every tournament against each other. >_< She frequently shows me up now, took 3rd at last year’s Regional to my 6th place finish. At our local Store Championship, she went undefeated with Jinteki against the players that finished 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

Mindgames!!!

It’s simple, really. Some wine, some scented candles, and some spanish guitar. Foreplay also comes a long way.

Oh, you mean Netrunner? :smiley:

It was a bit tricky, she didn’t like the game at first (preferring to play Call of Cthulhu instead). I think the breaking point that made her decide that “Netrunner is okay” was when she played with a beginner friend of ours - that way, she didn’t feel the pressure to do all the “not beginner anymore” stuff I routinely do (guessing agenda compositions, counting influence, actually remembering the five cards I saw on an Indexing run, that sort of thing).

Netrunner is a game where skill matters pretty heavily, and when you play against someone who is ahead of you in terms of skill, it can be very frustrating. Once she played enough games against said friend (and started beating her reasonably often), she got to the point where it was possible to have a retrospective of what’s a good/bad play and why. That was the moment where playing against me became less about frustration from losing and more about “this, this and this were things I could have played differently. Again!”.

I honestly don’t remember the terminology being a problem, though that’s probably because english isn’t our native language, and we’re used to learning specific terminology on a game-by-game basis (we’re both avid gamers). The biggest issue was the concept of rezzing and two different payments for ICE (one to install, one to actually turn it on), if I recall correctly.

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I took the decklist posted ITT for a spin today (though I switched Government Contracts for The Cleaners). A few thoughts

  • The deck is super fun
  • It really does tend to absolutely dominate newer players
  • @SamRS - “NBN does rush better” is a huge oversimplification. NBN sprints very fast and has Astroscripts. Supermodernism sprints a little slower than TWIY, but forces the runner to slow down in order to play around the flatline threat.
  • You’re often going to want to allow free accesses on central servers. Snare, duh, but also just because you’re going so fast that you don’t want to waste time. And because it makes them burn clicks while you’re busy scoring in your remote. However this introduces a LOT of variance, particularly on R&D accesses. Because of that, I don’t think I would want to take this deck to a tournament (at a store championships that I went to I once saw Andy turn 1 Dirty Laundry unprotected R&D -> score The Cleaners… bad times).
  • I wasn’t happy with Power Shutdown but I’m not sure what I should replace it with (Beanstalk Royalties?)
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