Home | About | Tournament Winning Decklists | Forums

"How Card Games Became Cool Again"

Maybe ANRPC could help?

Run some Limited (draft / core-only) tournaments, highest finisher who’s never played in an Unlimited event gets a cycle’s worth of Data Packs?

What Netrunner needs is a set called “Netrunner Masters” - a complement to the core set that fills out the core card play sets, and includes the majority of the highest power cards from the previous 2 years before the current year. It should be the sure fire “next thing to buy” after core and it should cost around 40 USD. This is the sort of thing that will help ease players into the game because the current system does not work and is unworkable without first party support.

I wish we could bring way more diversity to the player base but the very first step is making it possible for any new players beyond extreme outliers to join the general player pool. Without that, any effort to make the game accessible to women is nearly pointless.

1 Like

Something that’s been mentioned elsewhere as good ways to ramp up new players are limited pool leagues, or leagues that slowly grow their cardpool. Maybe do two weeks of Core, or something, and then add two datapacks every two weeks?

Actually Netrunner Masters is way too gendered language for a product that should help new players of all stripes get into the game. My point is that the name should appeal to high performance, not its entry level nature.

1 Like

This is my point. Growing the game is largely out of our control (presuming we are not contributing financially).

Being polite and respectful doesn’t grow a game unless the other polite and respectful people who are attractrd to such traits have the money and time to participate.

Conversely if a bunch of jerks play the game other jerks who can identify to their personality and are affluent enough to afford the game have an increased chance to purchase the product in pursuit to satisfy some need or another.

The game store I play in has had an increased number of players from the time I’ve started there, largely due to their enthusiasm and dedication. I would argue however that this has been more of a successful collection process vs. a growing process.

Having no idea what the people on these forums are like, I would offer that you’re best bet to grow a game is to patiently play with newer people to have fun and resist telling them what they should or shouldn’t do. What is strong and what is weak. Let them figure it out for themselves. Those who are not predispositioned to play netrunner don’t care how knowledgeable you are, they just want to have fun. Use their decks if need be.

1 Like

Yeah, I’m looking forward to seeing alternative formats like this! I noticed that @jkayati is starting a league along your lines of thinking. I think it’d be great to keep an eye on event series like this, see what the turnout looks like, and try to get some anecdotes from attendees. I remember Quinns mentioning that he wasn’t really aware of other atypically organized events, not out of vanity or anything, but because there hasn’t been a lot of attention paid to them. I think it’d be good to spotlight and support TOs trying to do something different.

Actually, I’ll go ahead and start a thread for this. Be the change you want to see etc etc

2 Likes

That’s actually incorrect - the vote of the people is important but it’s actually the Electoral College that elects the President, which is how a Presidential candidate can win the popular vote and yet lose the election, or lose the popular vote and still win the nomination.

Your point about the two-party system is still right… third-party candidates are barely a blip on the screen.

3 Likes

that’s a LOT of extra work for organizers when the vast, vast majority of players who would even be aware of such a thing happening would be the experienced players. Then all the players have to do more work building decks and playing decks that don’t even use the new cards they just bought and want to spend time trying out. There’s a lot of overhead in doing that sort of thing and it wouldn’t even necessarily help new players since they would be focusing early purchases on a limited card pool when other cards outside that pool might interest them more.

All suggestions for how players can help new players get into the game are good, and any changes to the nature of buying into Netrunner must be supported with inclusive action on the part of the community, but there is exclusion baked into how FFG has managed the LCG model and until that changes the stakes will be so high for the community to cultivate any meager level of diversity in the player base that it’s incredibly likely to fail.

I love that ANRPC recognizes this and is allowing proxy play of difficult to acquire cards in their events. It is an important aspect, although certainly not the only aspect, of growing a larger and ultimately more diverse community.

Caught me there. It’s usually the case however that the voters basically elect the president.

Yeah, I was aware of a lot of what you talk about here when I brought up my various points in my initial post in this thread. (Hence why I brought it up to discuss about). (Though I do think that making the FAQ more visible is unambiguous slam dunk).

So while in general you talk about the danger of keeping competitive discussion high, I think there are two large sub points to this.

  1. Overwhelming of veteran quality discussions by a mob of noobs
  2. Off-topic content (specifically, meme-esque content) driving the quality of discussion down

Of these two, I think the second is a more legitimate and reasonable concern, and one in which I’m very willing to give ground.

I’ll start with my feelings on the first one (which I totally understand where you’re coming from).

I think comparison to Reddit is bad, as I think Reddit is an inherently bad platform for discussion (for a lot of reasons, but basically there is no history. Everything disappears, discussions end after 2-3 days, and get brought up a week later with no record of the previous discussion). Forums have a strong temporal component to them, so your discussion on prepaid Kate is a long term discussion that builds on itself. Additionally, its much easier to recognize people and to recognize contributors to the discussion when it doesn’t constantly reset and disappear. r/Netrunner has discussions about how the same crap is OP basically every week, and every week its forgotten like so much rain in my tears.

Secondly, baring being intentionally mean and rude to new persons, new people who are interested in the game are going to come to Stimhack. Its a question of how we handle them; as an annoyance or as people with potential. If we build a system that can integrate people into the forums (having a new person thread that allows them to introduce themselves, feel welcomed, and points them to forum rules and to an FAQ on classic Netrunner tactics and questions (which can be semi-compiled from existing articles, you can link to an article talking about why underworld contacts is bad!) there will be a better transition period for new people to quality poster, more people involved in Netrunner, and a better atmosphere in general. There’s tons of stuff you can do (OCTGN mentorship program for interested people who will listen) that can increase the quality of new persons. I feel pretty strong that this is a good thing for both making the Stimhack community more accessible and the quality of the community and discussion better.

For the second one, I totally get where you’re coming from. I enjoy still jokey memes, but I understand finding them annoying (and I totally think they can get overwhelming and annoying). And having a greater social component does have the very real possibility to dilute quality discussion. I think having some amount of off-topic discussion allows greater community building to happen, and can cause people to stick around to hang out with their friends even when they might be feeling burned out on Netrunner. (This was me for other online games in the past, I continued to forum after I had stopped playing). However, this is something for us as a community to collectively decide IMO. It isn’t clear cut what the right call is here.

Anyway, I think while there is more room for discussion here, but I feel that there are some clear action items:

  1. Make the FAQ more visible (I still honestly have no idea how to find it) - Put it in the About Us, put in stickied new person question thread at minimum.

Semi maybe action items:

  1. Create a new stickied thread to replace New Player Question Thread
    Either A) A general thread where new person are encouraged to introduce themselves
    B) A specific new person introduction thread
    Either way it should have a link to FAQ. Should also maybe link to the classic article section of the website (I learned a lot from those when I was getting into Netrunner). Should tell people to introduce themselves (answer: Where are you from? How long playing? What decks have you been playing? What sets do you have?). And let them know this is a good place to ask any questions that have. If we think this is a good idea, I can type up a full introductory post.

Some maybe probably not action items:
Make the lounge not-private.

Anyways, glad to have a proper keyboard back to type this.

3 Likes

So, after reading all of the posts on here, I decided to share my own personal experience as well.

So I’m turning 18 this August so I’m a part of another minority in Netrunner. I believe that Netrunner has the most welcoming and open-minded community I’ve encountered so far, yet I’ve noticed some things that I think should still be adressed.

First of all, I’m speaking from a perspective of someone who looks a lot younger than they are. Now, even though that everyone in my FLGS is friendly and open, I still sometimes can get wide eyes for that, especially at tournaments where there are people from different countries and are surprised by the fact that a kid plays Netrunner. I’m sometimes being distanced from others just by not being of their age. I don’t understand if people really think that stereotypes really are true or what, because it seems that they’re really influencing the way they think and act. I’ve had people talk with me in that condescending voice one uses when facing a troublesome 5 year-old. It also seems that people trust me even less than one would trust a stranger, just because I look young, therefore someone not serious enough. I feel like I have to prove myself worthy their time, in order to have a nice chat about the game, new cards and spoilers, about the game in general. I must beat them or they won’t treat me as an equal.

This has lead me to be reluctant to telling others my age. And no, not because I’d be afraid of Internet pedos (there are probably much more fruitful places in other parts of the Internet for them) but because I’d be dismissed as someone not competitive or serious enough. Why can’t people understand that a guy my age can have just as strong opinions on something, can be just as serious, well meaning and passionate about A:NR as you are.

Another thing I’d like to address is the way a lot of people act around others, this isn’t something that has always been directed to me (though I have experienced it) but also against others. People seem to think that their preferences and opinions are the only right ones. And I’m not even talking about arguments (such as ProCo vs Quality time + Sym Vis that seems so passionate that I’m even wondering if the ones involved really want to convince others or just sound as loud as possible, without even sometimes defending their opinion). I’m talking about how people act (in casual and competitive environments) when faced with other people that have different preferences. Let me give you an example. I don’t drink (not because it’s illegal for me but because I don’t thoroughly enjoy it) and don’t smoke (because I have never wanted to please myself at the expense of my health and wallet). I excel at grades, do a lot of extra-curricular activities and don’t party hard. What a nerd! You say, with a smirk on your face. And this is the thing. While I don’t mind jokes and joking about everything and everyone, teasing people, etc., the agression that I don’t like is excluding other people based on their preferences. And I’m not talking about not being best buddies because you don’t share the same opinions but rather dismissing someone and not even giving them a chance because they are different from you. Yes, that is a problem with our society in general and it isn’t in the human nature to be welcoming to strangers, especially strangers that act in a different manner, yet I’d expect better from a group of people who play card games - something not regarded as very cool by the general public.

So, to sum up, I think we should be more welcoming in general, cast our prejudices aside and open up to the world, for it is full of great people, especially those who play netrunner. The biggest threat isn’t racist or ignorant jokes and black humor, it is the way we treat others - disrespectfully. We can still joke about eachother without treating eachother badly.

8 Likes

Another Youngster! :smiley:
I’ve turned 18 earlier this year and been playing since C&C. Most other players are noticeably older than me here, but me and my 2 school buddies whom I introduced to the game were always treated respectful. IMO it’s not about age, but about maturity and most players I met in germany seemed very mature and tolerant. Maybe the desire to mock younger guys because of their age disappears if you have children yourself. :slight_smile:

1 Like

It’s only this year that I’ve stopped being pretty much the youngest in tournaments (I’m 22), but I guess a combination of looking older than I am and also playing since the beginning (and therefore being one of the better players when the local group got going) meant that I’ve never really experienced this for myself.

It’s also possible that it’s a culture thing - sounding very middle class goes a long way towards respect in the UK.

1 Like

Are you saying that you get teased for being a nerd… At netrunner? I’ve been round a few different metas and have to say I’m surprised that people openly make fun of you - that sucks.

2 Likes

Usually if I see some young punk like you across the table from me, I assume I’m in for a crushing beatdown from someone who actually still has some functioning brain cells left. My usual strategy of waiting for my elderly opponents to stroke out mid-run falls apart entirely!

How does a Netrunner player call anyone else a nerd with a straight face, anyway? I know there was that one article about how the London scene is a bunch of popular hipsters, but I saw that crowd at Worlds last year.

3 Likes

In my local group there’s a lot of netrunners calling each other nerds, but not many manage to hold a straight face whilst doing so.

I posted the first part of this response on the Netrunner Geeks FB almost verbatim but it bears repeating as well here-- I can attest to being underestimated as a player on the basis of my gender. I have a tendency to “speed through” my turns as worded in the article because I’ve been piloting enough to recognize certain game states and how I usually responded in the past, but I’ve had multiple cases where my opponent didn’t seem prepared for me to respond that quickly. I always get at least two or three comments in any one tournament about how fast I play, but I don’t really think I’m trying to rush my opponents. And while I’ve never been directly questioned something like “well are you just here with your boyfriend,” there have been certain situations where my opponent seemed to think I was not in attendance to be a serious player, asking things like if I needed their clicks spelled out for me or asking where I got my decklist (because apparently I couldn’t have ever made one on my own). I think my most condescending example was first or second round at Worlds 2014 where someone asked me if I wanted him to use a click tracker so I could “keep up.” As Peters mentioned in the article, those are the sort of micro-annoyances you never really notice until they start to add up. I could probably expand on this more, but I don’t know if there’s anything that I could really bring to the table that the article hasn’t already addressed.

Now, in a higher tournament I don’t care about giving my opponent an enjoyable play experience; I’m there to fight tooth and nail and I have no qualms exploiting any vulnerability my opponent offers me, and that definitely includes them trying to “go easy” on me or if they aren’t terribly familiar with what to expect. Anybody who enters into a store championship, regional, etc. should not go in thinking people will play their fun, casual, jank decks and I’m not sure it’s a valid argument to complain that these settings “aren’t fun,” especially when they still can be. I’d be lying if I said I hadn’t had games where I got frustrated with a new player who didn’t understand what I was doing or what they were supposed to be doing with their own deck.

But while now I don’t really care about being discounted as a player, when I started out that mentality really sort of kept me from ever wanting to pick up the game seriously. I started playing back in the release of C&C in Indianapolis with a couple of friends, but we never went to even just the casual nights or game kit nights for fear that it would be the same high-tension competition that I just described above in the higher tourneys. This is a mindset that’s already well-described in the article, but Chicago blessed me with a wonderfully accepting meta so it’s hard for me to give any real insight to this firsthand. My first game in Chicago involved me eating 16 meat damage in one turn through 2 plascretes and a public sympathy (thank you based power shutdown), and for me it wasn’t ever “well that was bullshit, fuck those people” as a certain article suggested of the Chicago players, but it was more of a hilariously overblown learning experience that everyone there was already well-acquainted with (I was actually congratulated for being shut down that hard). Sure it felt bad to lose every game for my first three weeks out there, but I knew I was a new player and took every experience I had to expand my knowledge of the game.

It’s important to know, especially starting out, that you aren’t going to walk in the door simply winning every game. If you know that and can accept it, it’s much easier to be light-hearted about your losses and it becomes ultimately more enjoyable (Caprice losses notwithstanding). I have to admit that the Chicago meta is graced to have a ton of casual events where no one cares, and enough Game Night kits that all real competitive element is sort of lost. Everyone’s there to mostly just socialize and kill each other and it was definitely the most inviting meta I ever experienced as a newbie. It is sort of hard to push out that stigma of competition even in Netrunner but I’ve talked with enough people from enough different metas to know that most players are generally welcoming enough individuals despite the stakes. In the end though, it’s ultimately up to the individual to decide whether they want to stick around or not. I for one am very, very glad I did.

7 Likes

highly recommend against underestimating @Victorique (or really any player) when she sits across from you. i went into my round against her at nationals terrified to face that PE deck (probably more than facing Pacer’s Noise tbh, which is not at all a knock on his Noise), and she still absolutely kicked my ass.

5 Likes

Sorry @eric_c. I feel bad for knocking you out then instantly dropping my first two matches in elimination.

1 Like

you and @spags should commiserate sometime. he of first seed after Swiss at worlds followed by nigh instantaneous elimination. something about jank in the Swiss not cutting it in the elimination rounds ; ]

1 Like