Yes, that’s correct. I read “within” (as you say, a really wrong preposition here) to be shorthand for “within the parameters of that effect.” As it is “within the resolving effect” I believe we have to read that as “contingent upon that effect’s parameters.” Thanks for trying to figure out my explanation
Regarding Lukas’ explanation: I don’t think it Lukas suggests a broader reference to game state. Within the parameters of the Spike, it can interact with, and thus break, a wraparound. I think what I’m interpreting jives with his explanation perfectly.
Not to beat a dead horse, but just so I’m crystal clear – would you agree that this rewording (or something close to it) would be identical for all known game effects, then:
I can’t think of a circumstance where a trash ability could be activated if it weren’t in play (excepting some bizarre future agenda or something?), right? So there’s no need for these weird references to “game state” as far as I can tell.
Sorry if this has been covered, I searched the thread but I didn’t read all of it.
I was looking at Beth Kilrain-Chang, and it occured to me that if I have understood this explanation correctly, then her abilities can be affected by other start-of-turn abilities in a way that seems a bit unintuitive to me, so I wanted to double check if I had it right.
Here are Beth’s abilities, for reference:
If the Corp has 5-9 credits when your turn begins, gain 1 credit.
If the Corp has 10-14 credits when your turn begins, draw 1 card.
If the Corp has at least 15 credits when your turn begins, gain [click].
Let’s say that when the Runner’s turn starts they have Beth installed and Out of the Ashes in the heap, and the Corp has 15 credits. If the Runner triggers Out of the Ashes first, and the Corp spends one credit during the resulting run, then it looks to me like the Runner gets nothing from Beth that turn. Her third ability passed step one but fizzles on step two because the trigger condition is no longer valid; her second ability never hit step one, so it never gets to try step two.
Yes, that is correct. All of Beth’s abilities are checked at the beginning of turn, and only the 15+ credits one actually triggers successfully… Out of the Ashes triggers, and if you choose to resolve OotA first and the Corp’s credit value changes out of 15+ range, Beth’d trigger won’t resolve.
I’ve been told (and I think Jinteki requires) that there be a program in the heap or grip to use Scavenge to reset a Lady or a Femme. But I don’t see anything in the FAQ that says that. Indeed, the FAQ seems to imply the opposite under the card clarification for Scavenge.
The official answer is this important and confusing section from the FAQ:
Triggering Actions and Abilities
A player can only trigger an action or ability if its effect has the potential to change the game state. This potential is assessed without taking into account the consequences of paying play, install, or rez costs or triggering any further abilities.
Example: The Corp cannot play Archived Memories if there are no cards in Archives.
Scavenge’s text, for reference:
As an additional cost to play this card, trash an installed program.
Install a program from your grip or heap, lowering the install cost of that program by the cost of the program trashed.
The effect of the action of playing Scavenge is “Install a program from your grip or heap, lowering the install cost of that program by the cost of the program trashed.” The first part of Scavenge, the program trashing, is part of the cost. So, as per the FAQ, it is not taken into account when assessing if the effect has the potential to change the game state.
If you don’t have a program in your grip or heap that you can afford, then this effect on its own has no potential to change the game state, and therefore you can’t play Scavenge.
The FAQ clarification for Scavenge says:
The Runner can trash a program as an additional cost, and then reinstall that same program.
As part of the install action, the Runner can trash installed programs.
Neither of these things changes whether the effect has the potential to change the game state when there are no programs you can afford in your grip or heap and the cost isn’t taken into account. They only clarify what you can do when you actually play Scavenge, which you can only do if the potential-change-to-game-state check passes first.
