I’m pretty sure Lysander is considering cutting both Cyber-Cyphers for a single Gordian Blade. I don’t think he’s considering using both.
That being said, Keymaster does have merit over Gordian Blade anyway. Mostly, Keymaster is better against faster corps. But even then, NBN and Harmony Medtech really like Viper and Inazuma, respectively.
Cutting both Cyphers for a GB or Zu would allow the third Clone Chip, however… 
Why not 1 Cypher 1 Zu for the best of both worlds? Because of Yog, the most common code gates right now tend to be either small (yay Zu) or huge (yay Cypher).
I really think without the Suckers, the Parasite should go. I mean, what is it used for? Repeatedly killing small shite off?
I like the idea of just a Blade, opening up another deckslot.
Hmm very good point @Crunchums; I haven’t even considered Zu. As you stated, it’s good for all except Inazuma, Victor, and Tollbooth (which I really don’t want to pay for, even with CC). Still, strength 2 code gates would be a pain as will NEXT Bronze once the next NEXT ice gets printed. I’ll give 1 Zu 1 CC a shot, though I don’t care about adding more link to save the MU. I’d really like another decoder option, even though we have several to choose from.
@Spags I considered cutting Parasite altogether, but Jinteki’s low strength taxing ice would be a major pain in the ass, and I’m perfectly fine cutting just one deckslot and 2 influence to deal with it.
@Bilitherubin How are you finding your Kit now? If I were to suggest anything from the decklist you posted earlier, I’d recommend cutting a Gordian Blade and LARLA in favor of a third Prepaid VoicePAD and Professional Contacts, to help ensure you draw them early.
@LeoLancer How have you found Cyberfeeder? I think it’s a good effect, though I don’t know how much “oomph” I’d get out of that influence and deckslot.
So I’ve tried this build out, and it worked great at first. Now I’ve found my winrate with it has dipped below 50%. I’m beginning to think we’re making this deck a bit too complicated. I’m not a fan of having too many “moving parts” as it were. I’m starting to think that we’re putting too many “combos” and using tricks that require too many components to pull off. The end result of this is that I think this deck is losing the monetary/click efficiency that it was originally based around.
I hate Datasucker. There, I said it. I hate that card. Maybe it’s not great for this build, maybe I’m not a good player, or maybe I’m not using it correctly, but every time I see that card in my hand, I always wish it was something else. Especially in this deck archetype, I think it requires too many useless runs to get it “pumped up” enough to help Atman/Femme out. Consequently, I’ve dropped down to one Atman, as a sort of “wild card” breaker. I’ve taken Knight out completely. It’s a good breaker, but it’s just too click-intensive, and completely useless mid-run.
Another part of my problem is that I’m not a big fan of Femme. She’s just too expensive. I understand that you’re supposed to Test Run/Scavenge her. Most of the time, I have to spend 11 credist mid-run to install her, which is kind of missing the point. Again, I think using Femme economically and efficiently requires too many components in hand at once. Especially now that we’ve got a one-of Dino in the mix…
I like Deus X and Sharpshooter, so I don’t have a problem with those. I also liked having Parasite to just get rid of strength 0 ICE.
Is there a build where we can step back from some of these “tricks”? I’ll freely admit I’m not a hardcore pro at this game… I’d really like to see a build that’s just solid breakers and a good source of money.
I agree with you on Datasucker, Knight, and Atman. Try the deck I posted here. The only thing it utilizes that you mentioned not liking is Femme, though I think she’s rather essential. There are a lot of moving parts, and it’s not as easy to pilot as Criminals, but that’s more the nature of toolbox Shapers.
@Lysander: Guess I just skipped right over that new list! I’ll try the new build out. I REALLY think this is a strong archetype, and the recent tourney/Regional wins it’s racked up have really proven it’s effectiveness.
My main problem with Femme is that my opponents will often trash whatever piece of ICE I targeted, simply out of spite. At that point, once Femme’s bypass ability is rendered irrelevant, I feel like I immediately have to Scavenge/Clone Chip her to get that bypass utility back. Maybe I should just roll with a semi-neutralized Femme unless I really see the need to get that bypass back… or maybe I should just view it as forcing them to trash valuable ICE.
I also find she’s really expensive to break things. Maybe the Dinosaurus is crucial to getting good use out of her?
I was working with a deck like this ever since Lucky Find came out, and was just big breakers with some tricks to get them out (or maybe Magnum). I soon found that I could just pay for them with all the event econ, so went the straightforward route. It seems to work well. Instead of parasite I use a recurring Crescentus to repeatedly derez problem/expensive ICE, though I will give the parasite version a try.
See deck here [Deck(s)] - Variations on a Theme (Prepaid VoicePad) | Android: Netrunner
I’ve since messed with it a bit to fit a Legwork in.
I think the new build really helped with the exact problem you described, Legate. With the original build, I often felt like I was drawing disparate combo pieces and trying to get things together while the other guy was scoring. I’ve been able to play with the more recent version on OCTGN a bit, and so far it SINGS. I generally feel like I have what I want, when I want it.
I totally agree that the only clunky thing in the deck is the Femme (and the Dino, which is generally there to enable Femme anyway), but I also find it absolutely invaluable, if not the key to taking advantage of the rest of the deck. Keep in mind that them trashing the ice achieves the same result as Femming it (provided it’s rezzed- otherwise they save a few creds destroying it unrezzed), and synergizes with the Parasite by making them trash ICE. I’ve been very happy with the deck even when I have to hard-install the Femme for 9, or when I have to pay a lot of credits to pump her, for three reasons:
I totally wish I could make even better use of the Femme without having to eat its cost drawbacks, but I have been very happy with it so far nonetheless.
I was thinking of recurring Shutdown, but Crescentus is one less INF. Nice call!
@Lysander I hear you on that small, problem ICE. Mimic handles that just as well, no? I guess you just want it permanently out of the way. I just find it hard on the No Sites to 3 Sites/Suckers spectrum to tread as close to the former as you are. If that’s the case, I’d just abandon the ICE removal. Would be better off with Crescentus, as noted above. I still think 1 Atman isn’t terrible, even without Suckers.
Tsurugi and Komainu cost almost as much to break as Tollbooth, which I hate paying for. I’d much rather run one Parasite (which I’ll almost always find some use for) and pay 1 to permanently deal with them rather than paying 4 every time with Femme/Mimic. That really is pretty much the only reason I’m keeping one Parasite; otherwise I’d probably drop it.
Yes, Komainu and Tsurugi are why I want to play with the parasite build. Crescentus on a Tsurugi does do a pretty good job though. And with Clone Chips you can derez an entire server, which is pretty fun. The other nice thing about Crescentus is that it doesn’t require the suckers (which is important when I’m taking up an extra MU with Garrote).
And BTW, this deck fairly regularly uses the LARLA, but doesn’t get too far into the second time through.
I’m not trashing the play of it. Def. adds a very toolbox-y feel to the deck. Also, Parasite is NEVER not useful.
For starters, I should probably mention that I’m not using PPVP anymore. I tried the list I posted and found that I disliked the timing of PPVP. I only played one game and I know I can’t really take anything from such a small sample size, but I didn’t like how I would draw my burst econ before PPVP. I felt like I either had to be less efficient by playing them now, or I had to be too passive. Anyway I built a new Kate deck without the PPVP and I’m pretty happy with it so far.
Kate “Mac” McCaffrey: Digital Tinker (Core Set)
Event (18)
Hardware (11)
Resource (6)
Icebreaker (6)
Program (4)
15 influence spent (max 15)
45 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Honor and Profit
Deck built on NetrunnerDB.
Personal Touch + Cyberfeeder should make runs as efficient as possible, and they (should) work well against both fast and slow Corps due to the relatively quick payoff and lasting effect. In practice, Personal Touch has been fantastic, and Cyberfeeder merely good; however, my sample size is too small to really be sure. The first Cyberfeeder I install has been netting me ~4 credits per game against faster corps (Harmony Medtech), I’d say (I should be keeping closer track; this is just an estimate). +4 may not sound like a lot, but a Sure Gamble (without PPVP) is +2, so just by the math it seems worth it.
The biggest issue I had with early variants was the sentry 'breakers. I was originally running Femme + Test Run, but the huge install cost was holding me back from running early and making the most of Cyberfeeder and PT. I changed to Mimic + Ninja with the idea that I could use Mimic early and install Ninja later if needed, with Sharpshooter and Deus Ex filling in the gap. With that setup I had to run a couple Mem Chips to ensure I could still Clone Chip SS and D Ex after installing all my permanent 'breakers.
I hate running Mem Chips though, and I found myself drawing them early and having to discard them because they clog up my hand. But when I do that I can’t use them for their intended purpose.
The only ICEs that were holding me back from going to just Ninja are Komainu, Tsurugi, and Caduceus. Komainu and Tsurugi can be dealt with with Parasite, but Caduceus is the real sticking point with going just Ninja; there’s no really good way to deal with it other than Mimic and Link (though Parasite is decent).
Then I realized that by doing this:
-1 Mimic, -2 Akamatus, -1 Legwork
+1 Femme, +2 Test Run, +1 Parasite
My issues were solved. Komainu and Tsurugi will die to Parasite, and Akamatsus are no longer needed when Test Run can grab the D Ex or SS if I haven’t drawn them by the time I need them. Caduceus, I realized, wasn’t actually an issue because Kate has a Link (which I forgot for a few days, apparently 
).
So yeah, Cyberfeeder has been good, but not great. Personal Touch is great though, and so far this deck has worked well. A few things I might change would be fiddling with the numbers of Maker’s Eye and Indexing (not sure which I prefer, hence the funny numbers), and finding room for a LARLA. I’m sure I’ll “discover” a few things to tweak at Friday’s Geekway Tournament. 
I beg your forgiveness in advance, as I feel as though I’m going to come across as rather obtuse here. How is Cyberfeeder not functionally near-identical to PPVP in this style of deck? You mention PPVP has timing issues in that its use is severely mitigated if drawn late, but I don’t see how that’s not the case with Cyberfeeder. Am I missing something here? For the record, in the few games that I have drawn PPVPs late (I’d say perhaps 8%?) I’d use my Same Old Things on Lucky Find, netting 9c over 4 clicks which is still a damn sight better than Magnum Opus with its MU constraints and moderate up-front cost.
As a side argument, I personally don’t much care for cards in decks that don’t make full use of their abilities. Perhaps I have more faith in FFG in this regard than I should, but the way I see it, they designed a card’s relative power around its aggregate abilities. If I’m only getting half of the card’s effect (as with Cyberfeeder here), I typically err on the side of electing more synergistic options. Hopefully this doesn’t hamper my decks’ optimization.
I hate to say it, because I feel like a cool guy when I use PPVP and other underplayed cards, but I’ve found the same-- Cyberfeeder is just better. I run a lot more than I play events with a play cost, and that’s before counting Cyberfeeder’s secondary effect.
If this were the 3 Parasite/Sucker and 2 Grimoire build, I’d agree on the Feeders.
Burst Econ is still good without PPVP. It’s just super efficient with it.
If I draw my PPVP late, I’ll probably only play an event a few more times. If I draw Cyberfeeder late, I’ll probably only run a few more times, but those runs probably outnumber the events.
Further, when I don’t use PPVP I can include other econ forms without fear of not getting the most out of PPVP. Cyberfeeder is more universal in that way.
Also, I don’t think it’s correct to say that Cyberfeeder loses synergy when not running Viruses - you’ll still use it often enough that you don’t gain much less than in a virus build.
I could easily be wrong, but that’s just how it seems to me.
I’d rather run 3 stimhacks than 3 cyber feeders if I just want to save money on runs.
PPVP gives me the option to play conservatively and generate credits required to make plays, its not just drip economy that I only get to use when I have events in hand - I can use the credits aggressively (like a cyberfeeder) by playing makers eye or legwork, or I can make them passively by playing burst econ cards. It has utility based on your events suite.
Cyberfeeder is not desperado, you still only get one credit per turn, the only way you make more money off of it than voicepad in an event heavy deck is if your games all take longer to finish.
Cyberfeeder is great, I’ve seen it in many successful decks - I think it is a waste of influence in the decks we are trying to make here.
Jinteki says hello.