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New Honor and Profit Spoilers

Armitage is less click intensive than Tri-Maf for the exact same effect while you wait for Kati to pay off, unless you plan on waiting for longer than 6 turns. I’ve never seen that occur, but I don’t deny that it is a possibility :).

they way i looked at it, is that you’re only investing 2 credits for something that will net you a lot in a short amount of time. most decks play 2-3 plascrete anyways, so against dead matchups it gives those a purpose.

furthermore, 3 meat damage doesn’t really mean much against decks that can’t kill you, since you can just play around the fact that that opportunity is there, and then the corp is spending a click and two credits to trash something that only cost you a click and two credits in the first place.

i’m probably biased since i don’t play against many tag and bag decks in my area, and i can see where that would be an issue. i do feel like the burst that this gives you may be enough to play it, however, considering the fact that while this out you can not run as much until you have plascretes in play (or other ways to avoid tags/damage), and that you can keep your credit level high enough with the card to play around sea source.

of course that’s a lot of “play around this,” “play around that,” which can’t always happen. i still stand by my first inclination that this card is strong (in the hands of a good player), however.

The thing is that burst economy cards also help you to have enough money while you wait for Kati, but they do it faster, and they dont risk making you take 3 meat damage.

In general, its relatively easy to achieve 1.5 credits per click simply from drawing and playing cards in a deck with a reasonable amount of economy. If Tri-Maf had been an easy Mark, you would be at +5 relative to the Tri-Mat play, right away. Tri-Maf lets you click for 2 once a turn instead of a more standard 1.5, so it gains about .5 credit a turn, and takes 10 turns before you are where you were with Easy Mark. (If the deck with Easy Mark was capable of generating 1.5 credits per click with the rest of its economy, for example, burning through armitages, and throwing in some other stuff).

It feels like the drawback of 3 meat damage is not needed at all to balance the card. Tri-Mat without the drawback feels like a “Fixed” Hard at Work, that makes it reasonably playable but not amazing.

Calling in favors - Meh. Most decks simply cannot find room to stack enough connections to be worthwhile. Even if you could, being so vulnerable to tags for something you can get elsewhere.

Logos. Anarch fanboy talk I think this is amazing for Anarchs. They need a tutor, but they also tend to be tight on deck slots. Sure you lose the virus counter and mu/recurring credits from Grimoire and Spinal Modem, but I think that this is worth a shot. Realistically tough, is probably better in Criminals or Shapers and entirely competitive with Desperado. I favor big plays, and getting another Account Siphon or Magnum Opus is huge.

Donut Tanges. Eh. Like the source, I don’t think runners will want to spend the influence or deck space for it. I could see a hostage criminal deck.

Theo. Eh. Don’t think this works well from a runner perspective. While you could have a large hand size, I think more frequently you will have to discard cards.

Tri-Maf Contact. I think it’s fine. I don’t know if I’d play it, but I think that its a fine play. I feel like it’s a bigger threat against Snare than Weyland. Econ goes a long way to fighting traces, but opps, Snare->Trash seems like a pain.

Dunno - seems to me like he’ll be great in Anarch. There’s quite a few Anarch decks I’ve made that ended up only having Sure Gambles for events (maybe 1 Stimhack, but I’m fine with paying 1 extra for that), and you’ll be assumed to play those before Donut hits the table anyway. I’m imagining it stacked with Xanadu, and the thought isn’t so pleasant.

Just think about what he does to Subliminal Messaging! :smiley:

(for the record: yes, tag-me anarch is still better right now, but that’s more of a “siphon’s too good” situation and less of a “donut sucks” situation)

The important difference being, Donut can be built around easier than The Source, and doesn’t self-destruct.

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I dont understand why people think Donut is playable at all.

I think he would already be pretty borderline if he was 0 influence and didnt increase the cost of events!
Paying a click, a card, and $3 in order to make the corp’s future operations cost $1 more is a pretty steep cost. Its only really good against Subliminal Messaging, but Tallie Perrault is probably better against Subliminal.

But he also costs 2 influence and hurts your events! What the hell? Massively overnerfed, imo.

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The only part of his cost I’m not liking terribly given how I plan to use him is the influence. Increasing your own costs is totally fine, seeing how he screws the very things that a corp could conceivably do to get rid of him (well, maybe except Character Assassination/Breaking News). The influence becomes a problem for Anarch, where I’d like to see him most. That could change though, if we could stop outsourcing our draw power.

Anyway, imagine you’re only playing 3 Sure Gambles in your deck. Now he’s something that, in the worst case scenario, cost you 5 to play (probably 4, since you’ll drop a Sure Gamble before you drop him, most of the time). That’s not too bad for how much he can slow the corp down. Hell, the biggest problem for runner decks lately has been just how insanely fast the corps have gotten. Now we saw a card that takes away a lot of the reasons behind that speed.

He obviously doesn’t have a place in all decks, but it’s yet another strong denial/disruption tool. Off the top of my head:

  • Subliminal Messaging becomes a non-issue
  • NBN can no longer score from 0 credits
  • SEA+Double-Scorch takes 3 more credits
  • Shutdown combos - lol

Seriously, I’m sitting here trying to think of things the Corp can do that scare me and don’t involve at least 2 operations played, and I gotta admit, I’m coming up pretty blank. Probably the only thing that comes to mind is a rezzed SanSan that I can’t get to… and I’d think that’ll be a bit more tricky to do when all your econ has a ~25% decreased payout, wouldn’t you say?

Seriously, @Alexfrog - you’re the guy that once wrote “Sure Gamble is massively better than Easy Mark”. Having Donut out means your opponents’ Hedge Funds turn into Beanstalks that need 5 creds to play. How the hell is that not worth a consideration? How many of your current Corp decks don’t run a heavily operations-based econ?

Yes, there’s a cost for playing him, but that cost is actually paid in the deckbuilding stage of the game. If he cost 5 to play and 0 inf, I wouldn’t touch him with a 10-foot pole.

Unlike her, he means you’re not chained to either tag-me or NACH, though.

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All my corp decks run heavy operations econ. But, $3, 2 influence, and increased event cost in order to reduce the effectiveness of those cards?

I’d consider it if it was just the $3.

If you don’t play events heavily (sort of like you build for a tag-me re:resources) and don’t need the 2 influence to function, it is just the $3, is what I’m saying.

I dunno, maybe you’ve been playing too much Criminal lately (I will freely admit that I’m having trouble imagining a strong Crim build around this dude), but he has serious potential in other factions, methinks.

in my eyes
1 influence = splashable just cuz
2 influence = splashable if it synergizes
3 influence = splashable if you need it
4+ influence = splashable if it’s just that good

I think it clearly falls within the realm of two influence. Would it be better if it were one or none? Sure, but two influence is hardly backbreaking.

You don’t play him in decks running many events. Universal denial cards tend to be much stronger than they appear because you’ve built to accommodate the effect while your opponent has not. He blanks most low cost operation economy, not just subliminal. GLC now has the net effect of clicking for a credit, Beanstalk is infiltration, sweeps week now requires the full 5 to be worth using, even hedge and restructure look a whole lot worse for an extra credit.

the only thing that concerns me is the 3 install cost, as it might take too long to get a significant return if you’re already down 3 credits. That being said, sphere of resistance is a vintage playable magic card for a reason.

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Tri-Maf seems very solid except in Tag-Me decks. Take into consideration the following. The corp has only 3 clicks per turn, plascrete is already practically a must have 2-3 of, connection card type, 1 time install cost.

Over a long stretch, say two full armitages (15 clicks) a first turn Tri-Maf approaches the value of 1.73 credits per click. Armitage only hits 1.47 per click. Add in a few choice connections and it is starting to look appealing with Calling in Favors, Compromised Employee and Kati Jones.

EDIT: for point of comparison MO eats memory and yields 1.53 per click, Daily Casts yields 5 per click but takes until the 3rd turn to start yielding profit.

On to the meat damage. How scary is it really? Consider Weyland TagNBag as the big threat. The blowout is usually SeaSource, Scorch, Scorch. You sit at a hand size of 4 with a plascrete and you are basically safe. Maybe one of the scorches is a punitive and you stole a 3 pointer last turn, plascrete and 3 in hand is all you need. Tri-Maf is basically the corp always having a 2 credit 3 damage scorched, which is sub optimal. Since you are already playing around double scorch… it isn’t really a threat. If you aren’t playing around double scorch… then it is very easy to let a plascrete eat it.

Again, in Tag-Me, just use armitage, other playstyles could make this rather useful though.

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