I want to come up with a way of viewing the ruling as anything but unwritten functional errata, but I’m having a hard time.
I’m glad I didn’t go to nats, I probably would have played CTM and probably would have been pretty upset.
I played CtM at gencon all day. Only saw 1 Slums. Even in that game, this interaction didn’t come up (I’m ok with slums RFG effect not triggering the trash effect, that part makes enough sense).
Don’t worry, I would have found it. I attended two regionals each with exactly 1 pre-errata IG entrant, and was paired against those players in each of those tournaments, and encountered timing issues in both of those games. I have wronged some god that curses my fate with bad tournament experience sorts of things.
You cannot replace a thing that never occurs. The trash that is being replaced by RFG must have occured, by definition, in order to be replaced by something else.
That’s how replacement effects work in Netrunner. Something occurs, is recorded in the game log, thus allowing the replacement effect to instead be enacted.
Thus, Slums does indeed prevent CtM from triggering on the first trash, and since that was the first trash no other trashes will trigger CtM. The answer is actually quite clear and natural just from the way people talk about and ask the question (“do subsequent trashes trigger CtM”, “when the runner trashes a card a second time does CtM trigger”, etc.)
P.S. The comparison to the reversed Crisium/SecTest ruling is a bit misguided. In that case, we are not dealing with firsts, triggers, and replacement effects. Crisium has a constant ability, which determines how the game log is recorded in the first place. When the Runner successfully runs on that server, that successful run is not being replaced by a non-successful run; the run just is non-successful. (Contrast this with Sneakdoor, which does replace a successful run with a different type of successful run, and thus can get a bit “messy” with SecTest in the way Slums/CtM does. tl;dr Netrunner is weird.)
3 Likes
No
…when you pay the trash cost of an accessed card…
I’m not going to try and say you’re wrong, because I think you’re right… But here’s the lingering doubts i have:
Imagine am Offer You Can’t Refuse run into a central with Mumbad Virtual Tour, when your ID is CtM. Which happens first, the CtM trace, or the Slums effect? If the Slums effect happens first, then the CtM effect never triggered at all. The way Slums is worded, it sounds like it would trigger first, even on the Corps turn.
1 Like
It’s a replacement effect for trashing. It replaces the trash not the “paying the trash cost”
2 Likes
So he was “trashing” but actually never “trashed a card”… Which is actually the words on the card.
How come the game record the runner “trash a card” when he never trashed a card ? It’s exactly like saying the runner accessed a card when using sectest, this is stupid… The runner replaced something That triggers with something else, sorry this never happened yet. If he redoes, then this is happening.
It’s like the runner comes, don’t trash a card but RFG, come back and trash the card to me.
Replacement effects or not. Tori vs Netshield is a bad exemple aswell : Tori is a first / any / instead fighting a prevent first. Prevent are always faster than conditional or even permanent ab. It’s not first / a, on one card, and when may instead on the other.
That said “trash a card” doesn’t occurs.
You can’t say “it’s replaced but it occured”.
So.
It’s happening but for one reason you say it’s not happening for CTM1, but was happening for CTM2.
Cascading rules never worked there : “trashing a card” never, ever occurred because of Slum. Slum trigger before CTM1 triggers. So if CTM1 never triggered, the cascading rules never say CTM1 is invalid, since the CTM1 trigger must be in a “wait to be solve” state for cascading rule to intervene.
CTM1 never triggered. The runner was "about to pay a trash but actually never “trashed a card”. The runner was trashing if you wish, but never trashed a card.
Unless you’re saying “a = 0”. But to me, you would have need an “any” somewhere.
So if CTM1 never triggered, how come it miss its window for CTM2 ?
If gamestate recorded CTM1 triggers but it fizzle from Cascading, then I’m sorry but I don’t understand Cascading anymore. Slum triggers not at the same time, it trigger before CTM so I really don’t understand. I think you’re recorded CTM1 trigger before its condition that never occurred, say cascading works when it never worked.
If Slum would have said “the first time the runner trash an installed corp card, then the runner may rfg instead of trashing that card”, I would have 100% agree. There, cascading make miss first on CTM. But actually something is new here. Pretriggered stuff.
What is this game log? Has it been referenced before? Is it a name for what we called until now “the game remembers”?
Also do you have any other examples where this “it happens, but actually doesn’t because it’s replaced” would happen?
Lastly I know the exact wording is different, but isn’t this replacement effect similar of what Film Critic does? Because that doesn’t trigger access effects either while actually accessing the agenda, but does so before the corp’s effects happen.
Both triggers are not the same, and they don’t intervene at the same point of the trashing process. Slum would always trigger before CTM to me, in any case, runner or corp turn.
There is no simultaneous effect / cascading ruling, there is something totally new and, to me, out of a magical hat. So I’m waiting for an OFAQ entry.
CTM have a constant ability aswell. We are talking about the same exact thing.
This is much simpler if you break it down in steps. As @percomis said, consider the game log as “the game remembers”. It’s all the stuff that the game has to calculate, which is separate from the actual game events that occur and can in fact be different from the game state as it changes from effect to effect.
We will skip all the steps of the run, counting from the access as if this is game log step 1.
1. Runner accesses unrezzed PAD Campaign from Remote Server N. 2. The Runner may trash PAD Campaign by paying its trash cost. 2.1. The Runner pays the trash cost of PAD Campaign. 2.1.1. Salsette Slums triggers. 2.1.1.1. Salsette Slums resolves. 2.1.1.1.1. The Runner chooses to use its ability. 2.1.1.1.2. Salsette Slums sets up resolution for future: when the PAD Campaign is to be trashed, remove it from the game instead. 2.2. PAD Campaign is trashed.
2.2.1. The effect from Salsette Slums replaces trashing PAD Campaign with removing it from the game.
(Theoretically, Controlling the Message would have triggered here at 2.2.2., but it doesn’t even check or register because command 2.2 was interrupted and never resolved.)
When you break it down like this, it is much easier to demonstrate. The effect from Salsette Slums can’t go back and unwrite the command line 2.2, it can only issue further commands. Consequently, in a later run…
27. Runner accesses unrezzed Jackson Howard from Remote Server P. 28. The Runner may trash Jackson Howard by paying its trash cost. 28.1. The Runner pays the trash cost of Jackson Howard. 28.2. Jackson Howard is trashed.
(Theoretically, Controlling the Message would have triggered here at 28.2.1. , but as can be seen in the game log, this is not the first time the Runner has trashed an installed corp card, as that was recorded above in command 2.2; it doesn’t even register or check as the trigger condition has not occurred.)
1 Like
CTM does not have a constant ability. It has a conditional ability, the trigger of which is “The first time the Runner trashes an installed corp card.”
1 Like
…as a run on a Crisium Grid server must be successfull before it actually trigger…
Crisium Grid does not trigger. It is a constant ability, and constant abilities do not have triggers.
1 Like
The only examples of this that I know of are other things that involve “first”. That’s the real thing that people should be focusing on here: ordinal events in Netrunner always work based off of true recorded game log, regardless of actual game event occurrence. They have to, otherwise counting “first”, “second”, etc. simply wouldn’t make sense.
EX 1: Tori Hanzo can only work on the FIRST instance of net damage in a single run. Even though it replaces that first net damage with brain damage, it can’t then trigger on the next instance of net damage that would be done because it would not be the “true” first.
Ex 2: Net Shield prevents only the FIRST net damage each turn. Net Shield is not infinite.
I’m not sure what you mean.
Anyway, that would be the first ID with a non-constant ability…
Nitpicking : an installed corp card. 
What are you even talking about? 5/7 core set identities have conditional abilities. 39/64 overall have some sort of non-constant ability.