Official Rules Question Thread

Rules Questions
3429

I said constant (meant conditional) before – busy irl. “If successful” sets up a conditional ability. The condition is “when this run ends.” You’re right that they both have similar conditions associated with them. But the conditions are not the same. To suggest they are is flat-out wrong.

I’m not saying that you choose upon successful run. I never said that. If you can point to where I said that, I’ll retract that claim. I said that you are forced to choose when the first run from DB ends specifically because the “if successful” trigger sets up a condition that requires it happen after that run ends. This is the condition for the resolution of the second part of Data Breach. You can not use Data Breach’s “if successful…when this run ends” ability after a separate run ends for the simple reason that it is not that same run. The ability isn’t forced to resolve after the first Data Breach. It is a “may” ability.

As I have noted above, Run Events and their “if successful” triggers are directly tied top the resolution of that run, not to other runs or other effects. The card Data Breach can only resolve Data Breach. You cannot “proc” Data Breach off another run that is not Data Breach. Again, remember “when this run ends” is the condition for its resolution.

3430

There is no special priority given to this run versus a run. They are both an ending run (step 6 of the run timing flow).

You are not proccing Data Breach off of another run. You are proccing Data Breach off of step 6 of the first DB run. You are also proccing Doppelganger off of step 6 of the first DB run (or can choose to). Multiple triggers at the same time. You choose order. Choose Doppel. Resolve Doppel. Choose DB. Resolve DB.

3431

Anyway, I’m letting this one go. I don’t think we’re getting anywhere. Sorry I wasn’t able to elucidate, or be elucidated. Nothing said here has convinced me, and nothing said here has convinced you. Fairly certain that won’t change without fresh perspective.

3432

I’ll just summon @jakodrako.

3433

Okay, its hand goes up. You choose not to do it and do Doppel instead. Then, you want to do the rest of DB, but the window has passed because the condition is not met.

3434

“Conditional abilities resolve after meeting their trigger
condition. However, if the game state advances past the trigger
condition due to simultaneous effects or a chain reaction, then
the triggered ability cannot be resolved.”

3435

In the hope of maybe injecting some clarity, why do you think its condition is no longer met?

In the case of, say, Inside Job and Tolbooth, the “on encounter” flags get raised for both cards, but by the time it comes around to resolve Tollbooth the flag condition is no longer valid, as encountering is a discrete step with a beginning and an end.

A successful run ending, by contrast, doesn’t much look like something that can become an invalid flag once it has happened. When the run is successful, it will always be successful, and when it ends, it will always have ended. Nothing can subsequently happen, as far as I can see, than can make a run that ended subsequently be seen not to have ended or for a run marked as successful to subsequently be seen not to be (at least one of which it seems would have to happen for the “flag” condition to become invalid after having been raised).

I don’t think that: [quote]“Conditional abilities resolve after meeting their trigger
condition. However, if the game state advances past the trigger
condition due to simultaneous effects or a chain reaction, then
the triggered ability cannot be resolved.”[/quote] covers it.

This seems like it must refer to things like encountering where it is possible to advance past the trigger. It seems that these must be triggers that are discrete periods within of the game. Single events (like damage being done, an agenda being scored, a run ending are not periods per se but instances. I don’t see how you can claim to advance past an instance, without having to consider that anything happening after the trigger has moved the game on, meaning that only one effect can ever trigger from such an instance (which is patently untrue: just because you added your Astro token from the “agenda scored” trigger doesn’t mean that the game has now moved on and Leela doesn’t get her bounce effect).

3436

At the risk of wading into this hornet’s nest: I think you are conflating two different choices in your replies here. You make a choice about what order to resolve the effects in, and you make a choice about the “may” on DB - these choices are not made concurrently.

I still fail to see how DB’s trigger has “passed,” and no longer applies, when lots of other “when the run ends” effects (drt, stimhack, DL, etc.) are happy to hang out in the queue while a “nested” doppelganger run happens. The stimhack case seems, to me, to be a direct parallel - it is also waiting on a very specific run (and one initiated by a run event, no less) to resolve, and it will wait, quite patiently, through a doppel run if the runner chooses to resolve effects in that order.

3437

So, I had a long conversation with Jacob about this issue. I’m not going to reiterate it here, but let’s say that he’s explained most of it, which mostly started with that Damon ruling about Doppel. I want to say that, after reading that ruling, I sort of agree with Damon, but after talking to Jacob, I sort of agree with @ironcache. I’m just going to state for the record that I try, where possible, to uphold and defend the developers’ rulings and try to understand their rationales for doing so. I don’t, ever, try to jump on the “let’s find out how this game is more broken because of Damon” train. I think there’s a little bit of that going around, but I’m not going to say it isn’t deserved. Nevertheless, I know he makes mistakes. I’m trying to figure out whether this is one of them.

First of all, getting to the point, I now see how the trigger condition for each is the same in this specific case. So, I apologize to @ironcache for being a jerk about that point. There is one thing that I do need to explain, because I think it’s the central point I’m trying to make. It’s also something that @popeye09 pointed out.

The way I see it, and this is due to the specificity of the card wording in Data Breach, that the condition of making the run is that it must be made “after this run.” It will definitely queue up like DRT, Stimhack, DL, etc. (as @strundle noted), but the main difference between these things is that I don’t see how the Data Breach trigger is legally able to be used unless it meets those specific trigger conditions. Even if it has been queued up, because, in our example, we’ve used Doppelganger after the first R&D run, the conditions of its resolution appear to be changed – this [Data Breach] run versus the Doppel run. As far as I can tell, the condition for resolution of the trigger requires that it be right after the Data Breach run. Those are unique conditions that we haven’t seen before, and that’s why I’m having difficulty agreeing with Ironcache’s claim.

Remember when you guys were arguing that Beth’s trigger would raise it’s hand but fail to fire if the credit range of the corp somehow changed between the trigger and the resolution? Same thing here.

That’s how I see Damon seeing it.

1 Like
3438

Is this is confirmed to be ruled by Damon?

3439

As far as I know (and this is through Jake a moment ago) Damon ruled that Doppel doesn’t work with Data Breach. I’m looking for the tweet/ruling now. Found it!

@conorpirie @WinningAgenda @ANR_RulesWiki Short answer is no. If you data breach, you can doppelganger on the 2nd run if successful.

— iLogos (@iLogos) September 22, 2016
1 Like
3440

Cheers for the explanation. That phrase “after this run” (to which you are implicitly adding the word “immediately”) doesn’t appear in Data Breach though. The phrase is “when this run ends”.

Regardless of the wording, in terms of the principle (that the effect must happen immediately) it seems that would require you to read the trigger as being the successful run, and the phrase “when this run ends” to be a modifier on the effect (making another run) that is intended to convey the immediateness of the effect. However the word “when” has always been used in the past to indicate a trigger condition (indeed it’s one of the words called out specifically in Jacob’s/Lukas’ big effect type clarification conversation, and the core rulebook itself). It doesn’t seem at all a natural reading to understand it in a different context in this case.

3441

Well, I guess that settles that. I’ll follow his rulings.

But I do not perceive this as a good one. It’s “gotcha!”-style wording used to go against the grain of similar interactions. DRT specifies “when a run ends”, but persists if we proceed beyond the run in question. But for some reason, “when this run ends” holds some sort of special higher-order power, and will not persist if evaluated after the run in question?

Makes no sense to me.

3442

Right, my fault.

@ironcache yeah I can’t say why one works one way and another works another way. I tried above, but after talking to Jake, I don’t believe that it’s quite so simple. Anyways, glad we talked this out. I’m sure it will be an interesting uFaq coming up. :wink:

3443

The rules are in a bit of a flux state right now. Damon and I have a lot to discuss.

6 Likes
3444

I don’t think this can hold, though, without reversing some previous rulings (or hand waving “this run” as some kind of new magic keyword that takes priority or has a different timing structure, etc.). Stimhack doesn’t use the term “this run,” but you are definitely waiting for a very specific run to end…

ETA: if it turns out this new ruling does apply to, say, stimhack, I’m curious if there might be other ways to avoid the brain damage besides doppelganger.

3445

Looking for clarification on the rules interaction between the new Jinteki ID, Potential Unleashed and I’ve Had Worse.

Corp deals out some net damage, hitting I’ve had worse: We have two effects here – the stack damage and the drawing of cards from IHW – am I right in thinking that priority depends on whose turn it is?

3446

I believe so. There is some slight difference in the way the triggers are worded, but I think they fire at the same time nonetheless.

3447

Jinteki PU

Whenever the Runner takes at least 1 net damage, trash the top card of the stack.

I’ve Had Worse

Whenever I’ve Had Worse is trashed by taking net or meat damage, draw 3 cards.

Whenever denotes a conditional ability (same speed), so, if these two conditions can be considered the same, then it would depend on turn priority (as you and @strundle already expect).

I’m uncertain if the two conditions are the same though. I believe taking damage is synonymous with trashing the cards, but that’s just my best guess.

3448

Actually I’m reevaluating what I said previously. If trashing was synonymous with taking, Chronos Protocol would do nothing AFAICT (the condition it triggers off of would have already resulted in a trash, rendering it ineffectual).

So I’m now leaning towards “trashing” being after “taking”, which would mean PU invariably goes before IHW. Still not 100% though.