I’ll admit that I have no idea how to errata yog fairly, but no breaker should be able to break something for free without some sort of limiting factor. Faust is limited by cards in hand, over mind is limited to the number of power counters, yog isn’t limited by anything.
The MWL restricting things is fine, but not in the way that it was done, which was to violate and invalidate one of the core mechanics of the game. The whole point of the influence system is that it doesn’t effect your in faction cards.
Other ffg games like star wars and call of cthulu restricted card pairings. If you played with card x in your deck, you couldn’t use card y. MWL could have done that too. If you have parasite you can’t have clone chip. If you have architect you can’t use eli.
With MWL I just need to remember the name of each card on the list. With errata I would need to remember the name of each card on the list plus what change was made to it.
You say no breaker should be able to break for free, but yog isn’t free anymore, it costs you opportunity now, of 1 influence. It’s not like you need 3 yog for any deck, you just don’t throw it into a deck without thinking about it a bit more. Maybe when people start getting into midway station grid we can think about taking yog of the list. If every one on stimhack starts playing midway station grid I will take a trip to Minnesota and beg Damon to take yog off the list.
I suppose restricting the cards like that would work, but it would be a pain to have to remember all the combinations, something about the influence system makes it feel a lot more intuitive, in a sense. You effectively really can’t think about playing clone chip and parasite together, and since if you did anyway, it’s still very powerful, and you should have less influence for other ridiculous things
We’re hearing from an awful lot of experts on the “point of the influence system.” Setting aside the possibility that Damon probably has a better understanding of this stuff than any of you, shouldn’t we be equally outraged at Alliance cards for violating a core mechanic? Or should we maybe lighten up and acknowledge that one can alter or add on to a mechanic without ipso facto violating it?
Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of valid concerns that one might have about the MWL, but the purity and integrity of Lukas’s vision for the influence system really isn’t one of them.
Explain to me how having a new set of mechanical tweaks and rules that aren’t on the cards already, for each card, is less complex than just saying “Here’s a list. All of these cost you 1 Influence per copy, even in home factions.”
Complexity and elegance aren’t mutually exclusive, but when a complex solution introduces problems of its own, it’s not elegant. Per card errata changing card costs and things like paid abilities introduces a whole lot of problems, which I think are so obvious that I need not explain them.
MWL isn’t the most elegant (Banned/Restricted in the FFG style is) but it is pretty damn close. As you can clearly see by looking above, this idea is easily explained in a single sentence, and it accomplishes a large number of things without much additional complexity.
These things, off the top of my head, are: It allows FFG to introduce the Influence decision to cards that are problematic even in their own factions. It applies an easy to understand rule to all cards that make the list evenly. It allows players to still use certain combinations of cards and mechanics by trading off in other deck choices. It does not change the function of any card whatsoever, meaning we don’t have to memorize any new functions or gameplay mechanics.
What’s wrong with this article?If MWL causes less diversity not more,why would u want to put more cards in it?Faust may be should be on the list,but what can that do?A powerful card that is 3 inf for the other faction and 1 inf for Anarch,red is still the winner,just like Parasite nerf.
I think what we really need is decent multi-sub ICE.The truth is there are a lot of good stuff in Anarch than in other factions,and the real solution to this is corp got more decent ICE,not Eli/Architect level,but str3-4 multi-sub ICE.
And I’m certainly not sure what Damon is thinking,but he should be playing in a meta already in rotation and maybe 6th cycle 7th cycle or something,I guess his “meta” is not the same as us.Hell,a ban/restricted list had been mentioned ever since 2013 Worlds,do u guys really think they just randomly put some cards on it,“hey that’s it!”.The purpose of MWL is to open the design space,so rather than shouting put more cards on MWL,maybe we just should sit in here and wait for new cards.
Love or hate it,it’s the meta.People don’t know what to play right now,they went straight to Faust,Faust craziness everywhere,corp learning how to really deal with that,new cards coming out,craziness gone a little bit,threads die out,Netrunner is still Netrunner.Until more new cards released and more SC results come out,I should be just shut up on the MWL thing.
Number of subs is supposed to be kind of a characteristic of certain ICE types. Sentries having the most (but lowest strength), Barriers having the least (but higher strength), and Code Gates in-between on both counts. That has gone by the wayside a touch in the last couple cases, as both have examples of weird cases, but generally that should be respected. Just upping the power level of ICE isn’t better, in fact while it would help against Faust, it would further hurt Criminal with their native breakers mostly being god-awful at multi-sub ICE, and Anarch’s breakers would still be in the best position to deal with such ICE. I mean, I see a lot of people saying “Oh so NOW you think Faust is OP, it wasn’t BEFORE the MWL.” However, as I recall, and I’m sure you can simply look back at the original threads on the MWL, for a lot of people the most immediate reaction was to ask why Faust wasn’t on it.
I’m not going to say what I think they should do about it. They know better than me. But I don’t think just printing tons of brutal ICE is the right move. I do think the game is better without this level of Faust ubiquity. I don’t think it’s ruining the game, or making it totally unbalanced. I played against four Anarchs (out of four rounds) in my last SC, and every one was using Faust as their primary breaker. I won all those games, due to my deck’s ICE choices being picked with that in mind. That said, I sure wouldn’t mind if my opponents needed more than one breaker to threaten all servers, and this kind of lack of variety is, if not necessarily a sign of a broken game, REALLY FUCKING BORING.
[quote=“SecurityRake, post:47, topic:6866”]
Number of subs is supposed to be kind of a characteristic of certain ICE types. Sentries having the most (but lowest strength), Barriers having the least (but higher strength), and Code Gates in-between on both counts. That has gone by the wayside a touch in the last couple cases, as both have examples of weird cases, but generally that should be respected
[/quote]This isn’t really a thing. I had a look at some older sets (Core, Genesis, and Spin) and the average number of subroutines for barriers and sentries is the same, 2 per ice on average. (I didn’t include ice that can get extra subroutines like Tyrant/Woodcutter). Code gates were the outlier with only 1.4 subs per ice on average. One explanation for this is that code gates are cheaper than other types on average.
But I don’t think that’s important / intentional. The difference between types of ice is not the number of subroutines but the abilities of subroutines. Barriers usually end the run and nothing else. Sentries usually hurt you for facechecking but are least likely to need an icebreaker if you just want to pass through. Code gates usually do “weird things” and are in between about needing icebreakers. We can respect these facts while still making multi sub ice that’s good against Faust.
I think MWL adjusting the influence on a select few cards will turn out to be a good thing for diversity, although one thing it will never achieve is balance. It will just shift the imbalances arbitrarily around, but that’s fine as it stirs the pot and prevents stagnation. Playing the game of netrunner is fun, but theory crafting the meta is a higher level of intellectual entertainment.
At the moment things look worse because the sky is falling internet group think has determined that faust strategies and NBN FA are the only viable ones, which just isn’t the case. The meta just needs to tech to beat it and let new archetypes emerge (or old ones return - e.g. the demise of foodcoats is greatly exaggerated), there are 800+ cards and more than enough solutions within there. The risk is fan driven opinion ends up playing whackamole with the card pool until we are all left playing street chess in a dumpster, I would certainly like the MWL to remain light touch.
Has MWL shaken things up - sure. Has it balanced the meta game - no way… and I dont think it was supposed to. The benefit is to reduce stagnation, not level the playing field entirely (which is impossible). The runner meta technically is far more diverse than say 9 months ago, albeit the faction is monotone. 9 months ago you either played pre-paid Kate or a Noise deck. Now, orange is the dominant faction but there are at least 5 or so dominant archetypes within it using very different strategies and cards - Noise, Siphon/Apoc/DLR Maxx, Goodstuff anarch, Whiz Faust + Cutlery anarch to name a few etc. This seems a lot more refreshing and diverse to me than a Green meta where the same ID is used and almost every deck was identical except for 1-2 cards.
I don’t think this claim holds, to be honest. I would argue that there are three kinds of Anarch decks at the moment: Apocalypse Bullshit, DLR (although I haven’t seen it in forever) and Goodstuff Anarch. Goodstuff Anarch, of course, comes in as many different flavors as you want. You can make an argument for Noise being a different deck, but to say that there are five different archetypes using “very different cards” is not a good claim I think.
Other thing i don’t agree with is the Wyldside/Chronotype combo.
Yes it’s incredibly strong, but i disagree with the statment corp cannot import resource hate.
Last year I’ve had good results during store with sea source in HB, killing that same old thing of prepaid kate before the levy has been game winning more than one time.
In HB or Weyland you can make a corporate town stick (more difficult against Whizzard I agree). I heard Sync is a good ID and making news a great agenda. We also have all seeing I now…
If Runners depend on their Resources economy thats perfect, we have the tools to make war to this. Like having 2 closed account in every corp deck when crim dominated the meta game. Or Mimic when everyone played Architect.
There are two wrong claims being thrown around. One is that nerfs or bans always lead to more balanced formats. The other is that nerfs or bans never lead to more balanced formats.
We can see that the first is wrong just by looking at the format right now. Either they missed a card that they should have banned, or there was a strongest deck lurking just below the surface of the current tier 1 that rose to dominance because of the nerfs.
But the second is wrong too. There are examples from other games where there was a fair and balanced tier 2 format that was locked out because of a few extremely powerful cards that could beat that whole format. Once the few extreme cards were gone, the old tier 2 format became the tier 1 and everyone could have fun in tournaments.
If Faust is put on the MWL, it might not stop the dominance of Faust decks, but at least it would make them slightly weaker which can only be a good thing. Also, if Faust was put on the MWL and it succeeded in stopping the Faust decks, it wouldn’t necessarily lead to an ever increasing nerf list because it might be that there is not one single next best runner deck after that but a number of balanced choices. Have people even thought about what the format would look like without Faust around or are they just assuming?
Whether you’re a fan of Dominion or not, the designer’s notes make interesting reading in terms of game design. The point I’d like to highlight is that the designer is very aware that many balance issues cannot be fixed simply by costing/powering the card right (i.e. increasing or lowering numbers/stats), many issues are simply a problem of the card mechanics/effects.
Playing with the numbers can help and in some cases can work fine, but often it misses the mark, especially so when the numbers are small in the 0-5 range (like netrunner). MWL is hamstrung by only being able to effect one number/axis: influence, so it will never be that successful in my opinion, though I do think it’s a clever solution. Errata is the only way to really get there as they are effectively balance patches, however errata create serious issues/annoyances in terms of practicalities that we’re all aware. It’s a really tough problem, I don’t envy the designers.
The current complaint of Faust is a great example of a card that I don’t think can be fixed properly simply by altering numbers - it’ll always either be too viable or not viable enough as the key problem is the way its ability works (I hope I’m proved wrong though).
Right. Often DXV would take the card that could not be priced at any proper number, and throw it in the garbage. And the other cards that were left were all the better for it (you could say in some cases he changed the way the card worked instead of the numbers, but really that’s throwing away a card and making a new one).
The MWL is fully capable of the “Dumpster Toss”. Prepaid Voicepad got the dumpster toss, the heavy impact of hitting the “numbers” from so many angles (about 8 influence) was the same as banning it since it matched a certain minimum strength. And I think the game is better for it, Proco, Mopus, Aesop’s, and Congress are more interesting econs.
The people who call for Wyldside/Chronotype/Faust MWL are essentially asking for a dumpster toss, I think. Although Anarch influence is so loose that it’s not 100% clear to me that’s enough. The faction gets R&D multiaccess, HQ multiaccess, every breaker, and econ in faction…
Desperado made the list because it had a stranglehold on criminal consoles. Other criminal consoles saw very little or no play because ‘(X console) might be a good fit for my deck, but Desperado is always better.’
This is similar the the Eli rationale, where Markus 1.0, a nearly identical card, never saw play because Eli was always obviously better.
Even with it being on the MWL, most of the other crim consoles are worthless.
Blackguard costs too much for its effect, and you have to build around it.
Doppelganger isn’t that useful in most decks and you need the econ/rig to support using it to its full effect.
Forger isn’t a console
Box-E isn’t very good for what it does. There’s better ways to increase your handsize if you really want it, and you’re probably just better off slotting meat damage protection.
Logos can be good, but if you don’t get it before the corp starts scoring agendas, you have a 4 credit akamatsu mem chip.
There’s no stranglehold here. The competition is just /bad/. Even the new crim console is situational and flat out pales in comparison to Desperado, although it at least has some legs on Crim IDs with one link already.