Rough. The Nisei thing in particular I didn’t think about, but once they have one it’s ugly. Butchershop’s a really hard one as well - in my meta it’s all Midseasons not SEA Source, so I can play around that, but SEA + Scorch would be problematic. Fast-advance in general is, as I noted, an uphill fight.
I also kind of am beginning to wonder if Faust is really worth the inclusion in Apex builds. You don’t get anything close to the draw you get out of either lovegood/drug dealer or wylde/pancakes, both of which basically allow you to keep fueling the card and building up a board state.
So I am pretty much shelving Apex for now unless someone has an epiphany about how to play him. I don’t think I have been quite so negative about an ID since Nisei Division or Professor.
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Yes I’ve actually dropped Faust for my next bout of experimenting. In those 5 games I didn’t install it once. You don’t have enough draw to make it viable, and often you don’t even see your Heartbeat in games. It’s almost always worth more facedown than it is installed. Another change I am trying is dropped the the Day Jobs for Lucky Finds. They are more flexible. With these changes, I am sitting at 22/25 influence. Nothing so far has changed my mind about this being an unplayable ID. It certainly is fun, because it’s so different, but ultimately it’s just frustrating.
Interestingly, I definitely have been getting value out of Wastelands. They are basically the economic engine of the deck, which is unfortunate, because even with 3 out you’re only matching the strength of a single card, Aesop’s. Wasteland could and should have had another effect, IMO.
Another limitation on Apex is the inability to install more than 1 card face-down per turn, outside of trashing Hunting Grounds.
Thread title change #2 incoming…
“That’s not a viable ID.” - The Apex Lamentations
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Apex, Unplayable Predator
-alternatively-
Apex, Getting Nothing out of Something
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Endless Hunger for better card synergy.
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Endless Hunger cause this thing has never gotten a win.
SO HUNGRY
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Apex, Snatching 2-4 points from the jaws of defeat?
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How are you losing to damage? Heartbeat makes you borderline invulnerable once you have it down.
I have never once installed Heartbeat. It’s never worth it. It won’t save you from death unless you’re playing passively. One of Apex’s biggest issues is the inability to install enough face-downs to keep up pressure and leverage things like Chopbot, Heartbeat. I think its console is actually a pretty bad card. It won’t save you from Butchershop decks.
Heh, so much hate for him.
I can’t believe that this is my first post on stimhack (been lurking for…ever). I’ve been having a lot of fun running this build. I win around 3/5 of of my games on jinteki.net with him. Obviously that comes with epic caveats (no - not saying it is really competitive), but most folks get really flustered really fast and it is a lot of fun.
2x Apocalypse
2x Diesel ••••
3x Dirty Laundry
3x Fisk Investment Seminar ••••• •
2x Infiltration
2x Kraken
3x Legwork ••••• •
3x Prey
2x Quality Time ••
3x Sure Gamble
2x Traffic Jam
1x Clone Chip ••
1x Dyson Mem Chip
3x Heartbeat
1x DDoS •••
3x Hunting Grounds
2x Wasteland
3x Endless Hunger
1x Faust ••
3x Harbinger
Draw as much as you can as fast as you can to get to the investment seminars, and just keep going. With Endless Hunger, hunting grounds, and Heartbeat (and relentless installs) you really can just faceplant into a lot and keep ticking. Eventually you’ll get to a spot where either the ice fortress gets out of hand and you apocalypse, or the ice fortress gets out of hand and you lose. Legwork for legworkin.
The Traffic Jam is because sometimes you get behind the FA train and to deal with housekeeping. Oh god housekeeping. Thematically I find it funny that housekeeping is the Apex Murder card. Anyway, infiltration because sometimes you just need those legwork credits and sometimes you just must, must know if you are going to be burning everything down for the win or not.
I’ve found that using prey / kraken appropriately is key as well.
I go back and forth with Faust / Mimic, and I’m thinking that maybe Mimic (X2 even, removing one QT) just because Cres / Architect is a nightmare for him to deal with, you see them all the time, and Faust just sucks against them.
Anyway, try it out. It’s fun, at the very least. I found the chopbot one to be so… slow and depressing. Very not APEX. Some games this really gives the corp the, “Holy %*&$%nuggets, why are there so many cards in my hand… what… three legworks… what even… what is this thing? And why doesn’t it care what ICE I res, ever?”
Then Apex hits an Orion. But I digress.
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Certainly open to other builds. Not sure I like DDoS; I am very against that card. IMO it’s overcosted, although I guess if you consider it an Inside Job on every server, it’s fair. It’s still less flexible than Inside Job.
Well, I only use it to set up an apocalypse. Ever. It makes a mid-game apocalypse feasible, because (generally) there is cheaper “I can break this” ice second with the gross ice first.
You might say the opposite as corp when the runner screws up your ice math and steals everything 
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Except DDoS is telegraphed out of Apex? You have to play it a turn before an apoc hit.
I do like that it is self trashing, so it can trigger Wasteland.
But is one copy really worth three influence? You won’t get it consistently, it has to be telegraphed pre apocalypse and some games it will fall victim to Hunting Grounds.
You don’t have to Apocalypse the turn after you install DDoS. Also, you are telegraphing the Apocalypse as soon as you put Apex on the table.
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Thanks for this list. And the breath of fresh air.
I like the 1x DDoS, it’s a strong card in its own right and doesn’t lose a lot of power even if it is telegraphed in Apex. Any turn 1 run could be the Apocalypse turn, so it’s not like anything is different. The Fisk Investment Seminar is brilliant too. It’s just the draw Apex needs, and it directly contests a strong strategy against Apex - slow rolling and keeping Apocalypse recovery in HQ. When you vomit up more cards they have to install it heavily disrupts the HQ sculpting they’ve likely been doing all game.
Can you describe your Kraken uses? I almost forgot what the card does, despite playing it in my PPVP Whizzard deck in the 2013 regionals. I assume you score it off Legwork and choose a juicy server?
While the Traffic Jam is dubious, it is neutral and touches on a strong concept in Apex - currents. They aren’t turned facedown, are they? Since it’s not installed.
Ap.2 (45 cards)
Apex: Invasive Predator
Event (22)
3 Dirty Laundry
2 Fisk Investment Seminar
3 Infiltration
3 Kraken
2 Legwork
1 Levy AR Lab Access
3 Prey
2 Queen’s Gambit
3 Sure Gamble
2 Apocalypse
Hardware (5)
3 Heartbeat
2 R&D Interface
Resource (9)
1 DDoS
3 Ghost Runner
2 Hunting Grounds
3 Wasteland
Icebreaker (4)
3 Endless Hunger
1 Mimic
Program (3)
3 Harbinger
I have been testing this out on J.net to some moderate success (3/5) The only cards im unsure about are the 3x Ghost runner. Apex runs pretty cheaply to offset the virtual resource drawback (whether that is enough is up for debate) but i find myself installing them facedown 90% of the time. What do you guys think?
I cut Ghost Runner, it’s only use in Apex is to be able to always bid on TFP. It doesn’t justify the slots IMO.
Glad you are enjoying it! I’ve been wanting to do a longer (sober) write-up for a while, but work has gotten in the way. Anyway, I’ve played about 50 games with that deck or very close-to variations on it, so I’m about to get long and likely overly detailed about my experience. I can’t help myself, I’m a lawyer. Anyway, below is the current build and some general tips and explanations on my thinking.
INVESTMENT APEX: CONFERENCE SWAG FROM HELL
Well, we got these nice memchips that contained all the lectures from the Data Management Tips and Tricks conference. Then, like idiots, everyone plugged them into their deck when they got back to the office. It was a fucking bloodbath.
Event (27)
3 Apocalypse
2 Diesel••••
3 Dirty Laundry
3 Fisk Investment Seminar••••••
3 Infiltration
1 Kraken
3 Legwork••••••
3 Prey
2 Quality Time•
3 Sure Gamble
2 Traffic Jam
Hardware (5)
1 Clone Chip••
1 Dyson Mem Chip
3 Heartbeat
Program (8)
3 Endless Hunger
3 Harbringer
2 Mimic••
Resource (5)
1 DDoS•••
3 Hunting Grounds
In this build what I’m generally playing around with is the DDoS, and number of Quality Time and Diesel. Everything else has been pretty stable for the duration.
My General APEX Approach
There are all kinds of problems with APEX, all of which are noted above. When I saw APEX I started off the build with the following guiding theory in mind: I have to use the ID ability to the fullest with with the in-faction cards because otherwise it simply will not work. This lead to several conclusions.
First, APEX’s ID gives such a huge downside with the no virtual resources that the upside, the blank install a turn, must be used to the fullest extent possible. This means that the main breaker will be Endless Hunger. Period. This conclusion is also reached by doing simple influence math - It has no tutors in faction, and can’t afford econ and enough of all the other breakers to even be conceiveably feasible. So Endless Hunger.
Second, Endless Hunger means that you cannot run all the time. If you do, by sheer math, you will constantly not have enough cards to make successful runs, especially when servers start growing vertical. Therefore, you must make what few runs you do get count.
Third, Apocalpyse is the greatest thing ever for APEX and must be used as often as possible. More on this card and all the greatness it is later, but for now that basically means that the build should minimize the impact Apocalpyse has to APEX. That means few pieces of hardware and few, if any, resources. Thankfully, other than Glorious Heartbeat, you aren’t going to be missing out on much.
Lastly, Its econ is a disaster given the current card pool. The APEX life needs to be a cheap one.
Card Choices
I think that Fisk Investment Seminar (FIS) helps address some of his problems, namely: (1) card draw; (2) money (card draw for free); (3) accelerating the corporation. You have to play it smart thought. If you haven’t played with it before, then I’ll just say this: accellerating the corp from 2 cards in hand to 5, 6 starting the next turn, is a bad, bad plan.
“Its runs must count” led to > Legwork, which obviously pairs well with FIS, and Infiltration.
Levy AR Lab Access (Levy): I really, sincerely think that Levy is a very bad idea for APEX, especially in this build. First, if you draw it early then you are just killing your hand. In general, you will have several cards sitting there for just that right moment - Apocalypse, Legwork, FIS, etc. One more keeper card is a serious hindrance. If you just facedown install it then you just gave away 3 prescious, prescious influence for bloody nothing. If you draw it at that perfect time… well, that is likely late, and you’ve probably already lost because this APEX goes fast. Also, there is no money in this deck. Or in APEX in general. Seriously, just keep hammering on. I’ve lost one game due to being decked, and that was drunk APEX being an idiot against a murder Argus build (no Film Critic).
Apocalpyse (Apoc): oh god this is such a great card and I do not understand why some builds only use two. What Apoc does to a good player is force them to use many real, stopping pieces of ICE on at least one server. Paired with DDoS and effective trashing, this can become a big hinderance for the Corporation to effectively lock APEX out of both a Central and a scoring server. What Apoc does to a bad player is obliterate them. Humorous moments I’ve had: first turn Apoc! (ICE on HQ, remote, remote ICE, no res on HQ run - derp!); aha I’ve got you locked out of my Remote Fortress! (…); I play horizontal shell games! (boom); I have all the assets in the world! etc. Just keep an additional Endless Hunger in hand, install face down / trash it during the run w/ a Clone Chip in hand, etc. Lots of ways to avoid the downside, especially w/out resources.
I really like Traffic Jam just because there are several death currents for APEX - Housekeeping and Cerebral Static. If you aren’t thinking those two are coming up, there aren’t really dead draws with APEX anyway - just turn it face down. Sometimes it can save you on a fast-track train too. Also, no influence. No influence APEX useful cards are… rare I’ve found.
Kraken I’ve been going back and forth on. It is frustrating because the corporation can just dump an ice that isn’t even rezzed (PLEASE someone tell me that is wrong), so its uses are limited. Also, I rarely find the 3 credits in a situation where it is a must. Whenever I’m playing around with other options, Kraken is the first to go.
Wasteland: sucks in this deck. Sorry, it just does, it also may just suck in general. Costs 2, a card, and a click to install, which will pay you back, er… after three runs. But you are a God APEX. You blow shit up like it is a hobby. You don’t invest in the future.
Quick Tips On This Deck That APEX Learned Through Suffering
Don’t trash assets unless they are Jackson. Ever. You don’t have the money for it, and if you really need it trashed just set up an apocalypse. It is cooler anyway.
Don’t run R&D or Archives unless it really makes sense to do so. Don’t remind the Corporation that they don’t have them covered all that well.
HB (Bad Matchup)
HB is a serious problem for APEX, mainly because many HB decks like to go vertical glacier time (which, if it gets out of hand, is a disaster) and they have and frequently use: Turing, Rototurret, Architect, and Quandary. If you are playing HB you must keep your Prey cards and just install face down something else. Turing must be trashed as soon as possible, and if you have Quandarys on central servers they must go too. Repeated, aggressive use of Apocalypse is mandatory.
Rototurret and Architect is why there are two Mimics (and Cadeceus). I’ve played around with a Yog because of Turing, but I think it is better to save the influence for other things (DDoS) and just trash the damn things when they come up. Just takes Prey, two cards and a turn (…).
Matchup Thoughts (all relative good/bad).
Weyland (Eh Matchup)
Well, if they get their Archer up you’re dead. If they get two up (that happened to me one game) then you’re really dead. I don’t think there is any real answer to Archer given APEX’s restrictions, especially not in this deck. Other than that, Cadeceus is an issue, hence Mimic, but I haven’t had too much problem. Just don’t get decked against Argus…
NBN (Good Matchup)
If they are going Butcher, just wait for the Heartbeat and you are basically unkillable. I’ve thrashed a lot of NBN decks because I just go tag-me / Apoc aggressively, depending upon the situation. I keep running into the perma-current w/ cerebral static build, which is a pain… Everything gets checked, btw.
Jinteki (Good Matchup)
Again, Heartbeat and Apoc. The Archive-Punter (can’t remember the name) is a serious problem, but almost all of their frequently played ICE can be neutered with Heartbeat and just plowed on through. Then Apoc like a champ.
Thats enough writing for one day. It is a fun build, I promise, and once you start getting the ins and outs of playing Apocalypse effectively, you become an utter troll. I have tried and just don’t see a fun and effective APEX build that goes slowly and builds up, given the current card pool. And Apoc is such a great card that there needs to be some seriously new cards for APEX to justify going a build-up route rather than a burn-down route.
For what it is worth, you can win games with this build and it is a lot of fun. Really : ).
8 Likes