So I’ve been playing around with the idea of taking the agendas out of my corp deck. This is not because the game is broken, just doing this for fun to see how the rules would have to be adjusted and how the gameplay would change. The general idea boils down to this:
The corp builds a 45 card deck with no agendas; runner stays the same. Corp can install and advance face down ICE and Operations as blank agendas in remote servers. They are scored for a number of points determined by the number of advancements. The runner can steal these agendas; points also determined by number of advancements. So what if the runner runs R&D or HQ? Well every 4 accesses on R&D counts as 2 agenda points stolen. The first run on HQ each turn counts as a mini siphon.
Full rules:
Android: Netrunner variant - No Agendas
No Agendas follows the regular rules of Android: Netrunner with the exception of the following:
Deckbuilding
The Corporation may not include any agendas in their deck.
Corporation Gameplay
The corporation may install an ICE or operation card face down in a remote server treating it as a blank agenda that can be advanced.
When the corporation has 3 or more advancement counters on such an agenda, they may score it. The agenda is worth the following number of points: 3 advancements = 1 agenda point 4 advancements = 2 agenda points 5+ advancements = 3 agenda points
While the agenda is in a remote server or in the score area, it is treated as an agenda. If the agenda is sent to the archives or returned to the hand in any way, it returns to being an ICE or operation.
Runner Gameplay
The runner has an additional value to keep track of called “accesses”. The runner begins the game with 0 “accesses”.
When the runner accesses R&D, in addition to accessing normally, they increase their count of “accesses” by 1 for each new card they access. For example, if the runner runs and access the top card of R&D, then runs again and accesses that same card, they would only increment by 1. However, if the runner runs and accesses the top card of R&D and trashes it, then runs again and accesses a new card, they would increment by 2.
When “accesses” reaches 4, the runner steals the card that triggered the 4th access and adds it to their score area as an agenda worth 2 points. Their “accesses” then resets to 0. Note that this is still considered stealing an agenda.
When the runner access HQ, once per turn they may trigger the following replacement effect: "If successful, instead of accessing cards you may force the Corp to lose 1c for each card you would have accessed, then you gain 1c for each credit lost.
”When the runner accesses an agenda in a remote server (a face down ICE or operation), they steal it as an agenda worth the following number of points: 0 advancements = 1 agenda point 1 advancement = 2 agenda points 2+ advancements = 3 agenda points
Changes to Gameplay (things to be wary of)
Corp will build to their minimum deck size instead of adding 4 cards for density.
Corp will have more card slots available where they once had to fit agendas.
Corp controls when they have or do not have agendas.
Corp never has agendas in hand. Removes agenda flood.
Corp controls the number of points an agenda is worth when attempting to score it.
Ambushes work differently since a double or triple advanced card that is an agenda will always be a 3 point agenda.
Fast advance works differently as 3 advancements will never be worth 2 points.
Agendas are blank whereas they often used to defend themselves when stolen or benefit the corp when scored.R&D agenda accesses are deterministic.
Both players will know how many accesses before the runner steals 2 more points.
Runner is unable to steal points from HQ.
Runner has a new ability to make the corp lose credits and then gain those credits once per turn from HQ.
Runner knows exactly how many points an advanced card is worth given that it is an agenda.
Questions: What are the flaws in this design? How can they be fixed? What cards or strategies should we be wary of? How does this change the dynamic of the game? Is this even Netrunner anymore?
The reason for no agendas isn’t because agendas are not good or do not seve a purpose in play. This is an experiment in creating a new yet similar kind of game. Agreed, this makes the game more complex if anything but this isn’t targeted towards new players. At least that was not the intended audience.
I think there’s some confusion as to how facedown remotes work. Once the corp installs a facedown ICE or Operation, it’s an agenda. If the runner accesses a face down ICE they do not trash it, they immediately access it and score it.
”When the runner accesses an agenda in a remote server (a face down
ICE or operation), they steal it as an agenda worth the following number
of points:
0 advancements = 1 agenda point
1 advancement = 2 agenda points
2+ advancements = 3 agenda points
If this isn’t clear let me know what is unclear and I can refine it. Do you have any ideas on how I make the concept seem less abstract?
Only ICE or Operation. Assets and upgrades work the same way as they usually do. Not sure what you mean about running three times. Would running three times be different from running once?
I misread how corps would get agenda points in this format. I am going to clear out my prior posts.
Seems alright. Not my flavor as the have to access multiple times out of HQ/R&D is fiddly and the lack of printed agendas isn’t as flavorful but mechanically it is more streamlined and simple.
I think this format makes the corp camp R&D early, only lightly protect HQ and score late in a well protected remote. Without risking agenda flood at all, you’re taking away a key game mechanic, which probably makes games take longer because the corp player controls the tempo. It’s pretty easy to make R&D infeasible to assault if you’re HB and your deck is 30 ice, some econ and defensive upgrades.
Understood
Yeah the R&D and HQ portions are fiddly. I had someone from my group compare it to the GOT challenges. I need to test it out a lot and see how it is.
I am curious how this format would play out. There are some specific things that are going to shift in power level a great deal:
-Noise becomes very weak, and keyhole is way overcosted
-While “r&d lock” isn’t really a thing in this format, r&d pressure still seems quite strong, as medium/TME/RDI no longer depend on agenda density.
-Guaranteed steals means scenarios like: Leela gets 3 accesses and then sets up a crazy strong remote lock, ready to bounce at the drop of a hat… (Although now that I’m thinking about it, bouncing your 5/3 is a lot less exciting when it stops being a 5/3 in hand)
-Not sure at all how Haarp would work out.
-No agendas also means no agenda abilities - for decks that relied on Astro/Nisei/EffComm, etc., this is a big problem. For decks that viewed all agendas as basically liabilities (classic foodcoats, current IG), this means very little.
-The implications of things that mess with agenda points/advancement counters probably need to be thought through (The Source, Chakana, SSCG, etc.)
-That new asset that lets you install a freshly drawn agenda for free probably needs to be banned in this format? Or maybe dumping turns (and credits) for riskless guaranteed FA isn’t worth it in a format without 3/2s? Anyway, something to keep an eye on.
Thanks, these are all good points and very much what I’m looking for
-Noise is much weaker but still playable in this incarnation. Keyhole is nearly unplayable. I don’t think anyone would play it over Medium. Maybe in an Eater deck?
-I had not though of the added snipe with Leela. Seems really strong but not broken for the reasons you mentioned.
-Haarp would be pretty weak unless really strong Medium is overwhelming.
-Decks not having Astro / Nisei / Efficiency committee seems okay. There would definitely be a different meta.
-I think things that work with agenda points (ie punitive) work the same since there are still tangible agendas with point values on them. Advancements is a little tricker. Maybe I should add a rule that when something increases or decreases the advancement requirement it shifts the scoring value for corp (sansan makes the scoring 2adv=1pt, 3adv=2pt, 4+adv=3pt).
-Idk 4 credits to rez, 3 to rez so you can fast advance 3/1 agendas seems okay.
The replacement effect on HQ is pretty specific. Many decks don’t care about trying to make the Corp poor. It’s also quite weak. If the Corp puts something as simple as a Pop-Up Window on HQ then it is protected against all normal HQ runs. Normally Shaper decks could include a Legwork or two to give an HQ threat, but even against an unprotected HQ Legwork is pretty mediocre (net effect is -2 credits on the corp compared to just running normally). I also wonder if a Headlock-esque strategy is even viable in a world where the corp isn’t afraid of agenda flood.
Without 3/2s, scoring out is more costly. The runner doesn’t need to pressure early since there’s no need to fear something like an early Astro being snuck out. The corp has more deck slots for ice and economy, so it’s unlikely the runner will get much of an opening on R&D early, so I feel like runners will set up for late-game control. If the corp tries to score out a bunch of 3/1s via fast/never advance they’re likely going to go broke in time for you to get set up and pounding R&D.
Agree that HQ effect is specific and underpowered. For the first point: and ideas what effect we could implement instead? Discarding a card from HQ at random? I think runners should be incentivized to run HQ even when there is ICE protecting but I don’t want the effect to be so powerful that an early set of HQ runs secures the game for the runner. I would also like it to apply to all runner and avoid something like a headlock focus. Maybe a condition for scoring agendas from HQ? If that is the case it would have to be much weaker given that HQ is often less prone to giving up agendas in the real game since it can be managed much more effectively than R&D.
How do you propose to get around the problem of remembering what’s been accessed off R&D? If you dig 7 deep into R&D one turn, corp purges your Medium, 5 turns pass…who remembers how many of the cards on top have already been seen? What about Heritage committee or CBI Raid?
This is something I have been struggling with and I don’t think there is a very elegant solution. The best thing for your first point is to allow the corp and runner to keep track of the number of accessed cards on R&D. This goes against the whole memory aids thing but if it’s part of the rules it’s less bad I guess?
As for cards that affect the top of R&D like Precog/Heritage/CBI, since it is unknown whether the cards on top are new accesses or not; my intuition tells me they would be treated as new accesses. I will add something about that in the rules.
Maybe the HQ access rule can be changed by what faction you are, like Anarch trashes a card, Shaper gains an r&d access and criminal can do the siphon thing. The best way to see if this format works is by trying hard to break it!
I like the concept, I don’t think it will make for a good game though. It will take forever to finish if you allow the corp to just ice up centrals and delay scoring. Some stuff I’d do:
-set a max card limit for corps, they lose if they deck out
-when accessing r&d, turn those cards sideways to remember they’ve been seen
-count accesses with a D20, every x accesses is worth a number of points, you don’t steal the actual card. In your example, if you have 8 accesses, you’re on 4 points, 14 acceses and you’re on 7
-when running HQ put 1 accessed card in archives
-accept that some cards are not playable or OP in this format. Just remove them and test with straightforward cards, when you have a solid baseline, start testing special stuff.
