Are we not talking about Mandatory Upgrades yet?

[Xavi]

@bayushi_david

I think you want bioroids and brain-taping warehouse

Reasons? Thoughts?

[Kevoun]

Possibly to distract them from centrals by burning clicks checking remotes, entice them into running late in their turn, bluff out agendas if they stop checking. Also, more things to architect

[bayushi_david]

@Xavi

Reasons? Thoughts?

Mostly because NEXT makes every match-up involving parasite worse and that’s every match-up except Leela and Stealth Andy. Also because I think money is going to be the deck’s weakness. The sexbots tend to be worse outside ETF because you lose money up front thst you can’t afford but you never rez btw unless you are at worst neutral. Also this deck actually threatens flat-lines so running late in the turn is worse for the runner. And finally because you aren’t really going for gear checks, you want to make runs on centrals taxing whilst you mushin away.

[Xavi]

The problem I was finding in that particular decklist is deck space. What are you going to cut for the warehouse?

[Kevoun]

Cybernetics Division: Humanity Upgraded (Chrome City)

Agenda (10)

• 2x Accelerated Beta Test (Core Set)
• 3x Mandatory Upgrades (What Lies Ahead)
• 3x Project Vitruvius (Cyber Exodus)
• 2x Self-Destruct Chips (Chrome City)

Asset (12)

• 3x Brain-Taping Warehouse (The Valley)
• 3x Cerebral Overwriter (Creation and Control)
• 1x Haas Arcology AI (Creation and Control)
• 3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) •••
• 2x Snare! (Core Set) ••••

Operation (9)

• 2x Green Level Clearance (A Study in Static)
• 3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
• 3x Mushin No Shin (Honor and Profit) ••••• •
• 1x Neural EMP (Core Set) ••

Barrier (6)

• 3x Eli 1.0 (Future Proof)
• 3x Markus 1.0 (The Source)

Code Gate (4)

• 1x Turing (Breaker Bay)
• 3x Viktor 1.0 (Core Set)

Sentry (3)

• 3x Architect (Up and Over)

15 influence spent (max 15)
18 agenda points (between 18 and 19)
44 cards (min 40)

[Xavi]

Even with the warehouse money is going to be a big issue, I went with shell corp in order to have some sort of sustainable econ. If you stick it under an overwriter its almost safe (vamp/denial will hurt). I don’t know if the brain chips are worth it as the deck I posted is more or less about that first maybe second bluff. Did you score ManUp or did they hit an overwriter? If neither of those happen it will be very difficult to win… you then have to hope for an aggressive sec or a super valley grid server.

[bayushi_david]

@Xavi

The problem I was finding in that particular decklist is deck space. What are you going to cut for the warehouse?

I agree. I think that’s the sort of thing that only playtesting will reveal. But I do think that the economy is light and that sacrifices will have to be made to get some more in.

To make it worse there’s loads of other stuff I’d like to squeeze in. For example I’d love Archived Memories in there to recur Mushin. And I’d like Blue Level Clearance to get me to Mushin and targets quicker (and because its amazing once Man Up is scored). But space is really tight. I suspect with only 15 ICE that Valley Grid is going to be underwhelming - although again I’d like to see how 15 ICE in a 44 card deck plays out before committing to that.

[TheRedArmy]

@Lttlefoot

I don’t think mandatory is win more. Let’s say you were in a position to be able to score a 6/2 which didn’t have any abilities. Does scoring it mean you would necessarily win? Not really. Remember Netrunner is a long game, not like Magic which is decided in a few turns. I’ve won games as a runner where a few turns earlier the corp was sure they were in control of the game and had me locked out of their servers. Mandatory gives you a win when you might not have won without it.

To quote Colonel Stonehill from True Grit, “I do not entertain hypotheticals, the world as it is, is vexing enough.” I really love that movie.

A blank 6/2 is not in question here, because MU is not a blank 6/2. It’s a 6/2 that provides an impressively powerful ability. Blank 3/2s DO exist, in the form of Project Vitruvius. If I’m in a position where I can score a Mandatory Upgrades over three turns (taking 7/9 clicks to do so), then most of the time, I personally would probably prefer to score 2 Vitruvius (taking 8/9 clicks across three turns). That’s the real question here. When is scoring MU better than something else you could be doing?

If I’m at 3 points or more, two blank 3/2s is better. If my remote server cannot be secured, a blank 3/2 is better (because I might be able to bluff an asset/trap or FA it out with Biotic Labor). If any MU gets stolen, my ability to score another is greatly diminished since my opponent now knows to look for it, as opposed to ABT and PV, which are standard anyway.

Perhaps I’m missing something; I remember trying out the deck this one is based on, Upgrades Incorporated, but I really can’t imagine this deck winning consistently against the vast array of potential IDs and archetypes one can expect to face at high-level play. As a specific meta-call, or against less experienced opposition, it can be quite powerful.

[Lttlefoot]

You can’t replace one card with two cards. So let’s first ask, is mandatory better than one blank 3/2? Unless you’re on 5-6 points, there’s always that possibility.

Even if you assume that the top card of your deck is another blank 3/2, it still doesn’t guarantee you four points over mandatory’s two. You’d have to spend two more clicks to score the four (one to draw it one to install it) and it could be stolen out of your deck or hand while you’re scoring the first one.

[TheRedArmy]

@Lttlefoot

You can’t replace one card with two cards. So let’s first ask, is mandatory better than one blank 3/2? Unless you’re on 5-6 points, there’s always that possibility.

The agenda suite in the link posted in the top is 2x ABT, 2x MU, 3x NAPD, 3x Virtruvius. So it’s just replacing one MU with an ABT and changing the last one to taste, be it Efficiency Committee or what have you.

@Lttlefoot

You’d have to spend two more clicks to score the four (one to draw it one to install it)

That assumes you clicked to draw at some point; not always the case.

I feel like MU is viable in the right build; this deck has too many weaknesses that others better than I have already pointed out for me to really think it’s a top-tier deck. Whizzard makes the gameplan much harder. Dedicated ICE destruction can wreck you. Stealth uses recurring creds. You might just lose off R&D/HQ before you can score 7 since you only have a few copies of the most taxing ICE. I like the idea of using Encryption Protocol and MU and asset spam to just tax the runner into oblivion while you sit on Scrooge McDuck money. But I think runners are too tricky, with too many ways around that gameplan to be really viable.

The main reason it’s viable in RP is because of the ID ability, the power of Caprice Nisei, and Nisei MK II as a fail-safe. HB doesn’t have the tools to copy that (aside from Caprice, and ELP is the closest thing in-faction).

[vinegarymink]

I got the chance to play against this yesterday and I wasn’t that impressed. My opponent did manage to score the Mandatory Upgrades without me getting in, but in the time it took to score it I was able to install a Keyhole and use it over and over again. At that point my opponent has to choose between spending time away from Man Up to protect RnD I might be able to get in and take it, and if they ignore me I’ll build up a huge advantage.

Man Up is clearly insane when scored, but taking 7 clicks to score it is often what loses you the game. Even when you can protect it.

[emlun]

One of my favourite plays in the game is Fast Track, install ManUp naked, advance. Then advance, advance next turn and chuckle at the runner’s confusion. I actually scored one in regionals last weekend after Archived Memories, Fast Track, Install; Advance, advance, advance. Alas, I still didn’t win that game if memory serves.

[ItJustGotRielle]

@TheRedArmy

A blank 6/2 is not in question here, because MU is not a blank 6/2. It’s a 6/2 that provides an impressively powerful ability.

Hypothetical to entertain: You spend 3 turns scoring MU, Noise takes a Vitruvius and Turntables it

[Slakker]

That is awesome!

[TheRedArmy]

@ItJustGotRielle

Hypothetical to entertain: You spend 3 turns scoring MU, Noise takes a Vitruvius and Turntables it

Yikes. Really makes agenda abilities a bit worse in general. I don’t know if that’s a good thing or not.

[cmcadvanced]

I don’t think turntables is going to be that much of an issue, if it is I’ll eat my hat.

Mandatory Upgrades is doable with a caprice on board, that’s how I score it anyway. Or over advance Ares. Or score a 3 pointer for that matter. Yeesh.

[TheRedArmy]

Yeah, MU isn’t really unreasonable as a card, but you definitely need some combination of things to get it in - likely a taxing server plus a Caprice/Ash (maybe both) to ensure they stay out. The issue is that sometimes you just want other stuff when you see it. That can be true for many cards and agendas in particular, though, so maybe it’s not a big issue.

Turntable will see play for sure. I don’t know how big it will be. Probably be hit or miss most matches - either it’s great and makes your game much easier, or it’s just a useless install.

[ItJustGotRielle]

I started playing the Turntable game, where every time I drop a Grimoire in a tournament I pretend it’s a Turntable. So far 3/4 games in my last GNK it would have been a huge impact, swapping for loaded Nisei, swapping a Chronos for a PriReq, and an NAPD for a loaded Astro.

You have to score agendas to win- if you’re winning, then great, you’re winning. If not, you take the “trap” agenda NAPD and reverse it, gaining your opponent’s advantage and giving them a blank agenda.

[kiv]

Did you tell your opponent what game you’re playing? For example, if I see Turntable get installed as RP, I’m going to burn that Nisei token on ETR whenever it looks like you have a reasonable chance to score. As NEH I’ll probably score that Beale in my hand right away rather than hold out for an Astro chain.

Like Vigil, the Corp has a lot of counterplay to the console if they can adjust their strategy.

[voltorocks]

@kiv

Did you tell your opponent what game you’re playing? For example, if I see Turntable get installed as RP, I’m going to burn that Nisei token on ETR whenever it looks like you have a reasonable chance to score. As NEH I’ll probably score that Beale in my hand right away rather than hold out for an Astro chain.

Like Vigil, the Corp has a lot of counterplay to the console if they can adjust their strategy.

I agree with your reasoning here - Turntable on the board is going to change how any corp plays.

The interesting thing to me is that both of the “counterplay” examples you give are examples of the corp choosing sub-optimal play. Getting RP to blow a nisei early or NEH to slow their roll and score out blank agendas early are both potentially pretty great results from this card.

Overall I think this is great card design, can be played around but also must be played around. I think it will see play as an “anarch astrolabe” (i.e.: this deck needs 1 more MU and this is a cheap way to get it in faction that has nice utility as well) similar to vigil.