It’s a horrible card that’s worse than Vigil or other options.
It’s win-more, and you’re paying 2c for something that isn’t stealing an agenda. If you aren’t in a position to steal their agendas, it’s horrible, and is only beneficial in a minuscule amount of situations anyway. Paying 2c for something that doesn’t help you steal agendas and is only good if you can steal agendas isn’t going to help you win in most cases.
All cards look amazing when you evaluate them in the situation they’re best in. Look at the countless other examples of cards that were about to be released that people predicted the end of Netrunner for. The best case scenario will happen an incredibly small amount of times, and the intersection of the times the ability is relevant and the times you wouldn’t have won anyway is very small.
Turntable is not a good card, very high-variance, and might see the lower end of Swiss but that’s about it. You don’t need to panic; it’s really not that good compared to Anarch’s other options. It’d see play if Vigil and Grimoire didn’t exist, but they do.
I think I agree in principle. The threat of pinching Nisei, Astro or Atlas tokens is non-trivial and makes the corp play more carefully and use those valuable and difficult to generate resources more liberally. I think its value is in making the corp try to play around it. Taking advantage of the suboptimal plays they make as a result of it’s presence.
Turning all agendas into the best case of whatever you steal and the most valuable agenda the corp has already scored is no joke.
But you’re right that it’s not often better than Vigil or Grimoire (or Spinal Modem). I don’t think it’s impossible that it’ll be seen in Noise decks. I think it’s worth trying there if nowhere else.
It’s true that people were hype for Will O’ The Wisp and Bad Times (neither of which saw play) but people were also hype for Caprice Nisei (which is high variance) and Clot (which is narrow and situational) and those are both metagame-defining cards.
Personally I don’t think Turntable will see enough play to be worth worrying about, but neither is it binder trash like so many other cards in the game.
Two credits spent not stealing an agenda = useless?
I provide real examples, you wax cynicism. Astrolabe can be played around, so can Security Testing- in a meta where no one is trying much on newer cards for runners, you know as well as I do how much speculation you’re putting on this. The ticking time bomb that is Nisei (or Astro, sure) HAS to be dealt with, and as anarch it takes a commitment of board state to force their hand prematurely into using that Nisei token so they don’t Excalibur into Blacklist you or what-have-you. When Film Critic is released we’re likely to see RP alter its agenda suite, upping its variance and letting Anarch do what it does best, capitalize on variance.
This really isn’t going to happen. RPs agendas are amazing, they won’t change because a slightly clunky semi-counter is released. They might be slightly less good, but I emphasise the slightly.
This is one of the first cards in the game that doesn’t provide an effect that contributes anything towards you winning (like gaining credits, decreasing run costs, drawing cards) unless you get extremely lucky. In that respect, it’s not really comparable with a card like Security Testing.
You’re spending two credits on something that does nothing to help your long term longevity or help you actually steal agendas. It’s not good in games you crush your opponent, games you get crushed, and only sometimes good in games in the middle (and very rarely marginally better than Vigil/Grimoire in the most Magical Christmas Land of situations).
You can provide examples that make any card look good. Examples of cards being good doesn’t make those cards good. Specific situations that make cards better than other cards doesn’t justify a card’s competitive uses.
Leviathan breaks Orion for 6, which is the least for a permanent solution in the game (CyCy is 7).That doesn’t mean it should see play. In some games, Push Your Luck can be extremely good and can win games, but generally, it isn’t ‘extremely good’, and one has to take into account the situations a card is not good (or not as good as another option) as well as the Magical Christmas Land scenarios that present the perfect situation for a card.
This card will not change anything and I’d be very happy if someone is playing this against me over Vigil or Grimoire as RP (or any deck, in fact). The blowouts you can get with a card like this doesn’t make it good, just like Push Your Luck (though Turntable’s far more discreet in how high variance it is).
Aurora breaks Curtain Wall for 10, 1 less than Corroder! That doesn’t mean it should ever see play, even against BS.
Just in case anyone gets the wrong idea here, Aurora does not in fact break (an outermost) Curtain Wall for 10 - it breaks it for 12. 1 more than Corroder. It breaks an innermost Curtain Wall for 10 (which Corroder breaks for 7).
Sorry to nitpick and this has nothing to do with the topic at hand (admittedly, extensive discussion about the usability of unreleased Anarch consoles in a thread about Mandatory Upgrades isn’t 100% relevant either) - just want to make sure no one ever uses Aurora un-ironically in a deck. Just looking out for my Runner brethren and sistren.
Bringing up the black sheep that is Aurora, that’s a low blow.
Anyway, I think cards like mandatory upgrades are have to be built around, but when they are done right, not even the best runner can break the plan all the time.
Also, clot doesn’t seem like a big deal for MU, since you can purge like no one’s business with 4 clicks.
Whoops. Didn’t mean to cause a Turntable firestorm.
I agree with @MasterAir that Turntable is a “I have to concern myself with this and play around it” card, but it’s a pretty minimal thing. It might cause you to lose a Nisei/Astro token once in a while, and that definitely hurts, but it’s not a huge deal. This is probably a harder blow to NEH (who tends to give up an agenda or two in a game) than most other IDs, particularly RP.
That said, I think, @Xenasis , you might miss a situation where it is useful. I agree that almost all the time it doesn’t take you from losing to winning, but it might take you from losing to losing not-as-badly as before. A reasonable line of play is that NEH has scored an Astro and is digging for another 3/2, you run R&D (say with a Maker’s Eye), and grab a Beale/BN/NAPD, switching it out and denying him the token. While you’re probably still not winning, you’re definitely in a better position than you were prior to the swap. A similar situation
For reasons like this, in the right meta, I think it’s likely that it will see play and be a not-completely-unreasonable include. Although I still think it’s worse than other options available. If a player feels like he wants his NEH/RP matchup just slightly better and feels like Vigil/Grimoire/Astrolabe just doesn’t do much for him, I could see players swapping it out.
For what it’s worth, I won’t be playing it anytime soon. Which means it’s probably a God-card in disguise.
Well, the issue is that you normally swap a two-pointer for another two-pointer, so you just deny the ability the scored agenda would otherwise provide (which might be nothing). In some cases, you’ll get a one-for-two or two-for-three, but that’s harder to rely on, and it completely luck-based.
And then the card is awesome, everyone starts playing 5/3 only builds and netrunner changes again. I don’t think the card is bad, it just won’t see a ton of pay for various reasons stated.
Agreed. Some will play it, and every once in a while someone will win a game with it. It’s one of those cards that isn’t reliable enough for serious competitive play.
I would rather play medical breakthrough in that case, at least I get something if the runner steals it. Not that I think film critic will change much.
Sorry to derail things. As you were!
